[ExI] POST-SCARCITY SYMBOLS Launched (defeat despair, create utopia, share hope).
sjatkins at mac.com
Tue Sep 7 21:15:36 UTC 2010
On 9/7/10 5:34 AM, Singularity Utopia wrote:
> On 9/6/10 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com <mailto:sjatkins at mac.com>> wrote:
> "Unfortunately it is made up pie in the sky. Even with MNT there is no
> miraculous, inescapable and they lived happily ever after ending
> coming. There is a very slim chance that it works out really really
> well for everybody and a much better chance it works out well for a
> relatively smaller number."
> Dear Samantha, Post-Scarcity is NOT pie in the sky anymore than Extropy
> is pie in the sky. Utopia is entirely possible for everyone.
> Consider a brain one or two billion times more intelligent than your
> current intelligence.
> The possibilities in such circumstances are infinite. If you fail to
> super-intelligence will create unlimited utilization of resources then
> consider the
> resources of a virtual world: in a digital virtual and in a virtual
> universes resources will be
> limitless. Quadrillions of infinite virtual universes could be easily
> created and within
> those universes more virtual and real real universes could be created.
> Extremely large
> brainpower makes anything possible. A good sci-fi book to read
> regarding possibilities,
> which our puny unaugmented brains cannot truly fathom, is PERMUTATION
No, the possibilities are not "infinite". A brain 12 orders of
magnitude faster and generally more powerful than my own can do very
amazing things. But it is still finite in its abilities just as I am.
It is still subject to the laws of physics. It still can only do so
much in the manipulation of matter and energy in a fixed period of
time. So please stop using the word "infinite". It too easily warps
In each and every volume of space there are a finite amount of
resources. No intelligence can utilize more than is present within its
sphere of action. That sphere of action is likely limited by speed of
light and by latency among the communicating entities. No it is quite
true that a Jupiter brain or even a much much smaller large asteroid
brain can create virtual worlds of such depth that no human could tell
the difference. Even many thousands or millions of such worlds. That
is fine. But is that the same as achieving infinite results? Not
really. It is a lovely possibility of great power I grant you but it
is not heaven. And what governs how these virtual worlds / virtual
universes work? What sorts of internal laws of physics or equivalent
order their working? What kind of things are possible and not possible
for the many classes and kinds of beings within them? Do you expect
they will experience only pleasant happy things forever? What happens
to any system when it receives only positive feedback no matter what?
How do beings grow in ability, understanding, wisdom in these worlds?
Do you toss all previous human 1.0 folks in the same worlds or in worlds
tailored to their current understanding, development, proclivities that
will maximize their growth? Do you put them in worlds that are their
idea of perfection until such time, if any, they decided that just isn't
good enough? It is not simple even if you can create virtual
universes with little no effort.
And we must remember every day that we are not anywhere close to
creating such minds. We must also ask ourselves if such minds would be
interested in hosting such domains when they do come into being.
> A few examples of how we are moving towards Post-Scarcity are:
> 1. The free operating system Ubuntu verses the expensive Microsoft OS.
Not at all. A bunch of people, myself included, realized that much more
could be done in the realm of software if the base tools and many
components were much more open. It does not cause zero to create or
distribute Ubuntu sot is not free as in free beer to make. It is
produced by the cooperative efforts of a lot of people, by donations and
by the sale of services. It says nothing about post-scarcity per se.
> 2. Free browsers.
You are confusing what you get for no cost with and end to scarcity.
That said it is true that bits can be copied perfectly and distributed
widely with little/no additional cost beyond the price of the computers,
energy and communications. The size of a non-tragic commons is
certainly increasing and can increase much more. But this does not mean
we have infinite resources or that nothing is scarce. Top notch
creators of the content in the bits are still not in an unlimited
> 3. The free Wikipedia encyclopedia.
Same thing, same error.
> 4. P2P sharing
Same thing, same error.
> Admittedly these examples of free stuff often make money via donations
> or or via
> another business in addition to the free-stuff but this is only the
> beginning. I can
> watch any video I want on YouTube for free, which people would have found
> unbelievable-pie-in-the-sky 10 or 20 years ago.
It is not "only the beginning". It take time (definitely finite
supply), talent, accumulation of resources that might have been used on
other things (opportunity cost) to produce anything whether people are
charged for the result or not.
> Samantha, you ask if we can "stop with the hype?" I would say the same
> to you.
Whatever. I was not guilty of it.
> You also ask me to tread carefully because people will become
> disillusioned with H+
> if it doesn't work out how I envisage. I also ask you to tread
> carefully because I have
> spread my dreams under your feet. I am poor therefore I have only my
> dreams. Dreams
> are the most important part of being human because without dreams we
> are nothing. I
> cannot recant my dreams. I have a dream...
Is this an argument? Dreams are wonderfully important but they will not
put beans on the table unless they are realized in reality. Please do
dream big. Please share big dreams. But craft them well and in terms
that give us things we can do now.
> Samantha, you wrote: "There is very little power in positive thinking
> without clear,
> consistent, effective action. You can think positive all day long and
> get nowhere. You can think positive about something that in reality is
> impossible and work really hard to get it and you will still,
> guaranteed, fail. The utter and complete end of all scarcity is one of
> those things that are contrary to reality."
> Desires, dreams, and pioneering visions allow us to achieve the
No. They allow the achievement of what was in fact possible and was
merely thought to be impossible. And they only do this if they are
brought down to the reality of what can be done toward their
realization. And that is very much the realm of the finite.
Visions without works do nothing. Ideas are commonplace and
everywhere. Successfully acting in reality to accomplish the
implementation of an idea is scarce.
> Do you understand Extropy and the Singularity?
Are you going to try to teach your grandma to suck eggs? :) Of course
I understand them. I don't think you do quite but I appreciate and
understand this form of excitement.
> During the Stone Age a spaceship sending
> men to the Moon was pie in the sky, utter impossibility, but
> thankfully times change and
> we progress. The human race will soon take an unimaginable leap
> forward far surpassing
> all previous progression. I hope you are able to dream.
All of this is fluff that while true, is utterly irrelevant to the
actual question I raised.
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