[ExI] Strong libertarianism, societal good, & suffering (was: Cephalization, proles)

[Amon Zero]

On 15 May 2011 19:04, Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com> wrote:

> Rafal -
> Suffice to say, I disagree with your analysis on multiple levels. I have
> never seen anything approaching conclusive evidence that full-blown
> libertarianism would "produce good outcomes for the poor" (although of
> course I've heard a *lot* of assertions), whereas I have seen plenty of
> examples of unrestrained economic and political behaviour causing great
> suffering to people unable to protect themselves from its effects.
>


This conversation has been on my mind overnight, and I wasn't quite sure
what it was about it that felt so irritating. I've just been added to a
facebook group called "singulibertarians" by a friend, and as my wrote an
introduction message it became clear what had been troubling me. In that
message I asked a question and referred to the latest libertarianism thread
in this list. I hope you don't mind if I simply re-post my message to that
list:

******************************

Hi All - Thanks for adding me to the group :-)

Just a brief introduction: My name is Amon
Zero<http://www.facebook.com/amon.zero>,
I'm a transhumanist, singularitarian, artist/musician and cognitive
scientist by day. I live in London with a young family who keep me busy ;-)

So, to say hello properly, I have a question:

There are aspects of my worldview which overlap with libertarianism. I
strongly believe in personal and economic freedom, but I also believe that
both have their limits. I mention this because I'm currently embroiled in a
heated debate with an extreme libertarian on the ExI list, and that
conversation is making me come across as anti-libertarian just because I
think freedoms are only helpful insofar as they create net good, and don't
cause suffering. I wouldn't scrap protections against child labour, for
example.

I wonder if anyone here has any thoughts on this... for you, is there such a
thing as too extreme libertarianism? At what point does a supposedly
libertarian point of view become so extreme, and engender such extreme
outcomes, that you're not wholly comfortable endorsing it?

(Or you might care to address the converse; at what point does government
intervention become unacceptable? What level of governance would you be
willing to accept?)

Disclaimer: I am founder of a very new movement - the Zero State (
http://zerostate.net/) - which addresses these matters in its founding
principles. So I do have strong opinions on this. I'm just curious how
people feel about such things in here...

- Amon
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