[ExI] Uploading Swindle (was Re: Finally!)
kellycoinguy at gmail.com
Sun May 13 07:21:32 UTC 2012
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2012, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>> On 12 May 2012 18:44, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
>> > Humans feel, dream, educate themselves and change. Pets and insects don't.
>> I would not really know about insects, but I wonder what kind of experience
>> you have with pets. Did you have them lobotomised by your veterinary before
>> welcoming them at home?
> Interesting idea, but no.
I don't see us becoming pets in that sense... think more like a "kept
woman"... you will have liberty as a "pet" to pursue your interests,
but no responsibilities... I for one think this kind of future as a
limited "kept" person seems just a little bleak. You're no longer
relevant to what's really happening. Kind of like some people on
perpetual welfare are today. That's soul stealing, and I won't be
participating in that part of the future if I can help it.
> Revised statement, so it sounds like it should, a logical statement.
> Humans feel AND dream AND educate themselves AND change. I should probably
> add we change on our own behalf.
I am quite certain that whatever comes next, be it enhanced humans, or
something built rather from scratch, will have these four
capabilities. It may be superhuman, from our current perspective, and
it may or may not think of itself as human. I can't say. If you are
attempting a definition of human, this differentiates us from most
animals today, but it probably will not differentiate us from
Of course, under your argument is the entire question of free will and
whether we actually have it, or it's just an illusion that we all
carry... but I digress...
> Insects and pets don't do all four of the above. They may do some, but
> this is not enough. Of course we still love them, if we have them in a
When I say "insect", I don't mean that we in the future will only have
the capacity of an insect, but rather that it seems likely that we
will want to communicate with others more and more frequently.
I would invite you to listen to Sherry Turkle about the challenges
that we face just with today's technology to stay fully human.
She recommends rather liberal doses of solitude. The text connected
youth of today send an average of 3000+ texts per month. As
communication increases, and it most certainly will, the necessity of
solitude to maintain humanness will become even more important. I
think this particular TED talk is really relevant to this discussion
in that it shows the trends being followed by the youth of today.
Extrapolating those trends forward would seem to indicate a preference
for the hive mentality over what we currently view as "human", but
maybe I'm wrong or there will be a backlash.
However, there is no guarantee that we will be able to maintain the
kind of humanness that Sherry desires. And if the hive mind is
inevitable, would you rather be part of the only intellect that is
relevant, or maintain your independent, solitary humanity? I suspect
that your answer now is that you would rather maintain your
independent, solitary loving humanity. But I also suspect there are
many, particularly of the younger and next generations, that will not
desire this aspect of humanity any more. If enough are willing to
share all, and become part of a hive mind, then that hive mind would
seemingly become the most intellectually important being in the local
> Perhaps the list could be extended but I think just four properties define
> human quite well, from functional side.
So what properties would post humans potentially have that would make
them cease being human? Functional telepathy? Ability to process
multiple threads of thought execution simultaneously? What? When do
higher functioning beings cease being human? And is that necessarily a
I for one do not consider it the responsibility of our descendents to
care for us in our current state indefinitely.
> I consider myself human and cannot see reason to stop being one. OTOH if
> someone here would like to join hive or start learning tricks, be my
We already are in the hive, to an extent. This mailing list functions
as a kind of hive mind. I'm pretty sure it doesn't have consciousness,
but it is collective reason. Communication hubs of the future may
well be conscious. I don't know.
> Tomasz Rola
I have regards for you too Tomasz. And while I can't say that you are
wrong, I would plead with you to open your mind to a future of many
possibilities. Some of which you might find difficult to believe now.
For example, 5 years ago, I could not have imagined a future in which
I would be an atheist, free of the memes of Mormonism. And yet, here I
am. If I can change my core beliefs that deeply, then who is to say
what beliefs you might have in the future that are different than your
beliefs now. I don't hold ANY of my beliefs as being immutable any
more. I simply have beliefs that I hold today... and I am open to
having new and different beliefs as I learn and mature. Hell, someday,
I might even sign up for Alcor, who's to say?
More information about the extropy-chat