[ExI] Do digital computers feel?

John Clark johnkclark at gmail.com
Wed Feb 15 20:44:16 UTC 2017


On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:47 AM, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
wrote:

​> ​
> You first want to focus on: "If you ignore qualia and just replicate
> *observable behavior* then the qualia will also necessarily be replicated."
>

​Yes exactly.​

​ Replicating intelligent behaviour was good enough for Evolution because
unlike qualia Evolution can actually observe behavior, so it's good enough
for me.​


> But even if I do agree with this, from how I see things, it is still
> missing or removing some important functionality.  In the past you never
> want to move beyond this,
>

​Move​
 beyond this
​ to where? ​ If qualia comes from intelligent behavior and if computer
scientists can explain how to produce intelligent behavior then I don't see
what more needs to be said on the scientific subject of qualia. I don't
 see what more could be said even in theory.


> ​> ​
> The problem is, I can't point out the required functionality being
> removed, until you first understand and agree with some other things in the
> qualitative theory.
>

​I don't know what that means.​ I know you want an answer but I don't even
know the question.


> ​> ​
> I can't yet accept this functionalist way of doing neuro substitution.
>

​And yet I'll bet you ​
accept
​the
 functionalist way of doing
​atomic​
 substitution
​ because otherwise you'd ​have to conclude that you are quite literally
not the man you were last year and you are in fact last year's mashed
potatoes. Neurons are made of atoms so if you accept atomic substitution
why not neuro substitution?


> ​> ​
> Let's start on the subjective side of things,
>

​That is a *TERRIBLE* ​place to start because you've only got one example
of subjectivity and science is based on repeatability, so no viable
scientific theory can result if you start from just one example. On the
other hand you've got billions of examples of intelligent behavior right
now,  and if you look at the Evolutionary record you've got many trillions
of examples, so that is the obvious place to start.


​> ​
> So, given that we subjectively know that
> ​ [...]​
>

​We? The only subjective knowledge of subjectivity that exists in the
universe is ​
stuff that I, John K Clark have personally discovered. That's it, no
exceptions.​

​> ​
>  would you agree with the following?  There must be something that is
> performing the functionality of the redness experience,
>

​Yes one of the many functions the human brain has is the ability to
distinguish red from green, and the important thing about red and green is
not their absolute value but simply the fact that they are different.   ​


​> ​
> You seem loath to want to go there, instead, first, wanting to first focus
> on: "If you ignore qualia and just replicate *observable behavior* then the
> qualia will also necessarily be replicated."
>

​I said it before I'll say it again, Evolution produced me and I am
conscious and yet Evolution can't directly detect qualia in others any
better than I can, therefore I conclude the logical place to start this
investigation is by figuring out how observable intelligent behavior works.
I don't know if you're conscious too but if you are then you should find
this argument as compelling as I do.



> ​> ​
> Now, when you say you replace glutamate with glycene, and you replace the
> glutamate receptor with a glycene receptor, then assert that the comparison
> neuron will behave the same, you are removing the important comparison
> functionality,
>

​I agree, but the brain is more than just one neuron. If you swapped the
way a neuron responds to new red and green signals coming from your eyes
without also changing how your memories are associated with red and green
then you'd stop your car at green lights and drive through red ones.

John K Clark  ​




>
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