[ExI] sex again

[William Flynn Wallace]

Sexual attraction, both physical and emotional, is not under the control of
the ego.  Efforts to change it have been very disappointing to the
religious groups who have tried it on homosexuals.  (setup:  have a male
homosexual look at nude pictures of men followed by electric shocks to the
genitals).  Come to think of it (p.i.) you cannot change what you like in
any area you can think of.  You could get to the point where some food is
at best acceptable but that is far from loving it.  If any emotion were
changeable just by thinking about it, therapists would starve.  That throws
some light on pedophiles:  they cannot help who they are attracted to, any
more than you can.  Not to excuse anything at all, of course, but to
understand it better.  Mother Nature has really goofed here.

There's more to life and to gender than sex.  If you define gender by
sexual attraction then we have to go back to very old data for the 40s and
50s.  Few homosexuals are exclusively homosexual.  A surprising percentage
(don't remember) of heterosexuals have some homosexual experiences, broadly
defined.  Data from Kinsey.

I am quite sure that there are substantial numbers of people who just don't
have sex for a variety of reasons.  For a single person it can be a lot of
bother and worse. We can call them asexual if you like.  I just tend to
think that they have never had GOOD sex with a person they really care
about.

Nature did not design the sexual equipment of men and women to fit that
well, eh?  Just good enough is all evolution cares about.  I have not
looked on the web but surely one can find how to make love to a woman and
to a man.  One huge problem is the high sensitivity of the young male and
the resulting premature ejaculations.  One point I always made to my
students is that the second time is usually relaxed, slower, plenty of time
for the woman.  Six times in one evening is not out of the question.  Based
on data.

There is no manual of sexual intercourse that mandates that women do
nothing with their hands during sex.  Perhaps some women think it would
insult the man.  Which leads to another point:  the two should talk about
sex beforehand or at least sometime.  Men have a lot to learn - and so do
women (no, you don't blow!).  But just like sex ed by parents, people are
too nervous to do it.  So much of our persona is given over to our sexual
attractiveness but little about how to do it, and practice does NOT make
perfect.  If men were to be motivated ONLY by trying to insure that the
woman has a great time, things would be much better, and the man would get
his pleasure as well.

But, like anything else in a marriage, we are not trained.  Hundreds of
books on how to get along in marriage.  Why?  Because parents didn't teach
their kids.  Why?  Weren't any good at it.

I don't remember the reference to the emotional results of transsexual
surgeries.  But I am sure I did read it.  The doctors themselves knew of it
and started making accepting patients for surgery contingent on going
through therapy and a waiting period and so on.

bill w

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 3:54 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The promised reply to the rest of your (Spike's post):
>
> On Friday, December 13, 2019, 05:07:06 PM PST, spike jones via
> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> …Well, I do see Boomers doing the usual hating on younger generations
>
> that seems to go back forever…
>
>
>
> It isn’t really hating Dan.
>
>
>
> I'm using 'hating on' in the more recent usage: sort of like picking on
> someone often because of their success or whatever they're doing. You know,
> like people say 'haters gotta hate.'
>
>
> I recognize it might sound like it to young ears, but a continuous
>
> trend I have seen my entire long life is a steady march toward a
>
> kinder and gentler world.  Younger people have known only that.
>
> Older people must seem a bit harsh at times.
>
>
>
> Actually, I've seen Millennials pick on Zoomers (GenZs) for similar
> reasons Boomers pick on Millennials. And my readings of history seem to
> show this trend was even there in the Ancient world. Older folks, in all
> times, tend to see younger folks doing things different and all too often
> generalize to things like 'in my day, we were tougher' or 'in my day, we
> did things right.' The theme isn't so much the secular trend in things
> getting 'kinder and gentler,' but rather that each generation -- or many
> individuals in each generation -- really tends to see their teenage and
> young adult years as the Golden Age and their middle and old age as a rapid
> decline from that time. (It seems obvious why this is so, but it also seems
> obvious that Extropians and transhumanists -- like you and me -- should be
> exceptions to this rule, no?)
>
>
> Of course, many people also locate said Golden Age before them, especially
> conservatives in the US who tend to see the 01950s or even 01850s as the
> Golden Age. Note if you agree with them, you should reflect on what being a
> woman, a person of color (especially Native American or Black), or gay
> meant in the 01950s or the 01850s. If your political Golden Age was only
> good for upper middle class White males, then it's a rather restricted
> Golden Age -- king of akin to argue that absolute monarchy is great if
> you're the king: it's unlikely to win over others and it makes it look like
> you don't want a future of human emancipation along both social and
> technological lines, but a return to a strict class society with you on top
> and your foot planted firmly on everything else's neck. It's definitely not
> a libertarian or even individualist Golden Age for that matter. It's an
> etatist (statism) and collectivist one where everyone knows their place:
> those on top are free and everyone else better shut up and put up.
>
>
> …I thought Boomers were supposed to be the generation that broke
>
> with traditions…
>
>
>
> And created new ones, as rigid as the ones they broke, ja.
>
>
>
> Agreed. Hence my earlier statement that this 'seems to go back forever.'
> I'm sure pre-Boomers had the same inter-generational strife. As pointed out
> above: I've read Ancients, especially Romans, complaining about the youth
> having it easy, not knowing the travails of their ancestors, trying wacky
> new things. (Heck, read Homer and there's already whining about earlier
> heroes were better -- from folks like Nestor.)
>
>
> The new rules which are replacing the boomer rules are every
>
> bit as rigid as their predecessors.
>
>
> Every generation must smash the idols of the previous.
>
>
>
> If you're recognizing this, then why complain about Millennials?
>
>
> … but that’s kind of a stereotype too…
>
>
>
> Eh, stereotype shmereotype, it’s how people look at the world.
>
> If you don’t do that to some extent you are overwhelmed with
>
> data.  I figure treat everyone as an individual regardless of
>
> observable characteristics, understand that your general models
>
> are general and filled with exceptions, move on, no worries.
>
> Show Quoted Content
>
> … but that’s kind of a stereotype too…
>
>
>
> Eh, stereotype shmereotype, it’s how people look at the world.
>
> If you don’t do that to some extent you are overwhelmed with
>
> data.  I figure treat everyone as an individual regardless of
>
> observable characteristics, understand that your general models
>
> are general and filled with exceptions, move on, no worries.
>
>
>
> The problem is when someone isn't willing to set aside the stereotype. And
> that happens often enough. The point for underscoring something is a
> stereotype is to show it's actually hindering noticing relevant
> differences. Let me give you a recent and rather ridiculous examples. You
> might have of Milo Y., an alt-right icon. A friend of mine was shocked that
> Milo is flamboyantly gay yet on alt-right because he (my friend) cleaved to
> the stereotype that gays can't be on the Right, that they must be on the
> Left. Holding that stereotype made him think Milo was some kind of
> maverick. But there are plenty of gays on the Right, from alt-right to
> neocon to palecons to traditionalists and the like. Sure, it might be that
> the average gay person is not likely to be on the Right, but there are
> definitely many on the Right. (And I'm not praising the Right here. But
> it's false to view people as sort doctrinally determined -- All X people
> must be on this part of the political spectrum or hold these political
> views. That view does simplify things, but in a very bad way.)
>
>
> … (I’m guessing I’m surrounded by Boomers, so I mean no offense
>
> and I hope I don’t come across as agist.)…
>
>
>
> No worries, me lad.  We are not as easily offended as the younger
>
> generations are being trained to be.
>
>
>
> Here's where I think you might be wrong. I've met too many Boomers you
> seem to get easily offended when anyone goes against their views on
> politics or gender. They fly off the handle. That's where the whole 'ok
> boomer' thing came from: Millennials getting tired of the Boomers lecturing
> and bullying them over things like race and gender.
>
>
> (Hey I get to say that, because I am a front-row seat witness to
>
> how my own son is being educated in the public school system (8th
>
> grade (my observation is they are still struggling with the illusion
>
> that we can create a world in which no one is ever offended (methinks
>
> we cannot (I admire the effort and the spirit of the thing
>
> however.)))))
>
> Show Quoted Content
>
> (Hey I get to say that, because I am a front-row seat witness to
>
> how my own son is being educated in the public school system (8th
>
> grade (my observation is they are still struggling with the illusion
>
> that we can create a world in which no one is ever offended (methinks
>
> we cannot (I admire the effort and the spirit of the thing
>
> however.)))))
>
>
>
> It might be impossible to avoid offending everyone, though I think that's
> not carte blanche to offend for the sake of offense -- unless that's your
> thing. (I know it's not yours.) The usual thing is to try to get kids to
> break from seeing someone as different -- usually someone of a different
> culture who is peaceful (no one is arguing that neo-Nazis or
> neo-Confederates should be celebrated for their bigotry; or no one I
> respect is) or someone who has a disability. It's actually more mature than
> belittling or bullying people simply because they're both different and
> have lower status. Don't you think that's a more mature way to approach
> things? For instance, would you want your son be the bully who picks on,
> say, the effeminate boy or the kid who has a strong foreign accent or whose
> parents can't afford to buy her or him the latest iPhone? What the life
> lesson is your son were to be like that? What would he be readying himself
> for?
>
>
> For instance…  Do let me pick an extremey but realistic example,
>
> one I saw just today.  My son’s class went to the movies to see
>
> Jumanji (kids have so much fun these days.)  I went over to get
>
> some lunch at the food court and this guy with approximately a
>
> billion earrings and tattoos and bone thru the nose and boat
>
> anchors thru the damn cheeks and oh mercy, came, sat a few
>
> tables over from me with his girl who had a few orders of
>
> magnitude fewer piercings but still a few orders of magnitude
>
> more than I was comfortable sitting near, so I moved off, and
>
> who woulda thunk, when that old time religion guy was growing
>
> up he would never get it if you tried to tell him the truth:
>
> a coupla thousand years from now when some geezer sees
>
> something deeply revolting he will invoke your name with
>
> an intentional Irish accent even if he isn’t a believer
>
> (aaah Jaysus…)
>
> Show Quoted Content
>
> For instance…  Do let me pick an extremey but realistic example,
>
> one I saw just today.  My son’s class went to the movies to see
>
> Jumanji (kids have so much fun these days.)  I went over to get
>
> some lunch at the food court and this guy with approximately a
>
> billion earrings and tattoos and bone thru the nose and boat
>
> anchors thru the damn cheeks and oh mercy, came, sat a few
>
> tables over from me with his girl who had a few orders of
>
> magnitude fewer piercings but still a few orders of magnitude
>
> more than I was comfortable sitting near, so I moved off, and
>
> who woulda thunk, when that old time religion guy was growing
>
> up he would never get it if you tried to tell him the truth:
>
> a coupla thousand years from now when some geezer sees
>
> something deeply revolting he will invoke your name with
>
> an intentional Irish accent even if he isn’t a believer
>
> (aaah Jaysus…)
>
>
>
> I think your reaction is just a matter of what you're used to. An uncle of
> mine thinks guys wearing leggings and dying their hair is effeminate. Why?
> I certainly don't see it that way, but that's because he grew up in a
> different time. I kidded too because I know Boomers who grew their hair
> long were also teased for being effeminate simple because of that.
>
>
> So ja, I am guilty of stereotyping to some extent and
>
> won’t give it up (we geezers are that way, all of us)
>
> but think about this: what do you suppose it sounds
>
> like to those of us who remember fondly the croony
>
> swoony old time singers such as Lou Rawls
>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/0QTrCBAqTyM
>
>
> and compare that beauty to pretty much any rap created
>
> perhaps by the grandchildren of the young people seen
>
> bopping to Rawls in the video above.
>
> Show Quoted Content
>
> So ja, I am guilty of stereotyping to some extent and
>
> won’t give it up (we geezers are that way, all of us)
>
> but think about this: what do you suppose it sounds
>
> like to those of us who remember fondly the croony
>
> swoony old time singers such as Lou Rawls
>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/0QTrCBAqTyM
>
>
> and compare that beauty to pretty much any rap created
>
> perhaps by the grandchildren of the young people seen
>
> bopping to Rawls in the video above.
>
>
>
> This sounds like some really old timer saying his big band music is much
> better than the screeching of that Rock and/or Roll 'music.' :)
>
>
> If the contrast isn’t stark enough, choose pretty much any
>
> modern rap and go to the lyrics: oh mercy.  Hell yes that
>
> rap crap is offensive to me.  We have a society falling
>
> all over itself to offend no one, but has a huge blind
>
> spot when rap.
>
>
>
> I think it's a matter of what people are used to. Like in my joke above,
> the average person growing up before you probably would find much of your
> young adulthood unlistenable. (One of my grandmothers was like that:
> anything more recent than the early 01960s was noise to her. She'd tolerate
> it, but all of us knew she didn't like it.)
>
>
> …Less stigma would be great all around…
>
>
>
> Sure.  But why not stigmatize rap?  It is richly deserving of
>
> the most shameful stigma I can imagine, yet we turn a blind
>
> eye.  We stigmatizes disco music, ja?  It was the same thing
>
> over and over and over, nothing, and it was inexplicably
>
> displacing rock n roll, oh dear.
>
> Show Quoted Content
>
> …Less stigma would be great all around…
>
>
>
> Sure.  But why not stigmatize rap?  It is richly deserving of
>
> the most shameful stigma I can imagine, yet we turn a blind
>
> eye.  We stigmatizes disco music, ja?  It was the same thing
>
> over and over and over, nothing, and it was inexplicably
>
> displacing rock n roll, oh dear.
>
>
>
> Rap and hip hop are fairly wide genres. You can find lots to get upset
> about in them, but there's always other stuff too. This is no different
> than someone recently telling me that there was a Rock song called
> 'Cocaine.' And there are other Rock songs celebrating stalking, violence,
> and murder. But stuff like that tends to be forget. (Another friend of mine
> pointed out that early Blues -- and she was talking about Ma Rainey and
> Bessie Smith, so this is way before everyone here's time -- were frankly
> sexual, but that didn't get recorded or played on the radio because the
> censors made sure of it didn't. So then along comes the more frankly sexual
> lyrics and gestures in Jazz and then Rock and then Rap and Hip Hop. Since
> most people don't know history, they don't know their past was cleansed and
> they see decadence surging rather than recognizing that people were
> sexualizing music all along. And add a huge dollop of Puritan or Victorian
> culture and you might wonder how anyone managed to procreate in the first
> place.:)
>
>
> All of this went down a different (and quite random) road than I
>
> intended, so do let me try to steer it back.
>
>
>
> I am all for less stigma, more openness and accepting-ity, and
>
> all of it.  I love the whole kinder and gentler school my son enjoys.
>
>
>
> I know you're mostly just having a little fun here.
>
>
> He has seen exactly one major fight in 8 years of public education,
>
> and it wouldn’t be considered major by my standards: guys used to go
>
> at it to that extent regularly in the olden days.  A fight like that
>
> happened about twenty times per school year in a typical elementary.
>
> Now it is practically an existential crisis.  Well, ok, this is a good
>
> thing, but do let me assure you: if these lads are ever recruited to
>
> fight a war, evolution help us.  We need to master battle bots
>
> quickly, otherwise we are helpless as kittens.
>
> Show Quoted Content
>
> He has seen exactly one major fight in 8 years of public education,
>
> and it wouldn’t be considered major by my standards: guys used to go
>
> at it to that extent regularly in the olden days.  A fight like that
>
> happened about twenty times per school year in a typical elementary.
>
> Now it is practically an existential crisis.  Well, ok, this is a good
>
> thing, but do let me assure you: if these lads are ever recruited to
>
> fight a war, evolution help us.  We need to master battle bots
>
> quickly, otherwise we are helpless as kittens.
>
>
> Given that the world as a whole is becoming less violent, I'm not sure
> there's cause for concern. And US-Americans are far more likely to be
> killed by their own government (and other US-Americans) than in war.
> Actually, I'm happy to see an overall decline in this kind of 'rite of
> passage' male aggression. I don't buy the fairy tale of allowing bullies
> free reign to toughen kids. I've seen too many people grow up with
> emotional problems arising from that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> On Dec 13, 2019, at 5:47 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 13, 2019, at 4:56 PM, spike at rainier66.com wrote:
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
> >…I’m not so sure Bill W suffers from that here, and I hope will provide
> some substantiation for his reckoning of trans folks being unhappy with
> their surgical outcomes…
>
>
>
> Sure but none of what I was talking about to start with required surgery
> of any kind.  Any of the genders can be any other gender at will.  Surgery
> is expensive and painful.
>
>
> I was responding to Bill W’s statement from earlier today:
>
> “side note on gender - the sad facts are that people who go for the full
> operation to another sex are rarely happy with it.“
>
> He’s definitely referring to surgery there.
>
> Also, in regards to gender, it doesn’t appear that people, especially
> trans people, select their genders at will. Hence how they often experience
> problems fitting in and getting desired changes. It seems you’re viewing as
> whimsical and making much ado about nothing. That doesn’t go along with my
> personal experience of trans individuals or with what studies I’ve seen.
>
> Let me ask you: Do you experience either your gender or your orientation
> as something you can change at will? I certainly don’t. I’m not saying one
> can’t perhaps alter these over time with lots of effort. My guess would be
> for the most, even with transgender and genderqueer people, they experience
> their gender as something interior to them and not under their direct
> control.
>
> (I’ll respond to the rest of your post later. Have to head out for dinner
> with a friend.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20191214/ba713b0a/attachment.htm>