[ExI] The Thirty Meter Telescope is now officially dead

ddraig@pobox.com ddraig at gmail.com
Mon Dec 30 00:11:33 UTC 2019

hmmm, so he sent a reply to me as well as to the list.  I replied to the
personal mail, I'll just copy what I wrote in here.  Slightly less polite
than if I'd been writing to the list, but there you go.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 01:16, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 8:43 PM ddraig at pobox.com <ddraig at gmail.com> wrote:
> *> Are you stupid? *
> I don't know, it could be. Stupid people generally don't know they're
> stupid, but if I am stupid I'm certainly not as stupid as the mob that
> ILLEGALLY blocked the only road up that mountain to prevent the most
> wonderful telescope in the world from being built. I'm not as stupid as
> those who feel it is their duty to stick up for that mindless mob either.

None of us are sticking up for the mob, we're saying that ignoring the
wishes of the people present is foolish.   None of us would be on the
Extropians list if we did not support the building of the telescope.   the
problem is that you seem completely unable to grasp the fact that there is
more to building the telescope than logic, and are wilfully ignoring what
people in the thread are saying.

> *>  am I wasting my time with this guy?*
> Yes. So will you go away now?

Stop writing to me, dickhead, and I will.

> *> What you ARE willing to do is to cut out the next line (there were,
>> what, 3 of them in total?) where I said I agree with you.*
> That line was about property rights and implied that landowners have the
> right to do whatever they want with their land including not allowing
> telescopes to be built there.

Which they do.  Although it turns out that the mob does not own the land,
which makes it even more stupid.  Unfortunately, the mob has sway locally,
and here we are.

> I cut off that line because I did not wish to debate it, and I did not
> wish to debate it because it is IRRELEVANT.

Really? So the telescope is going to be built?

> Every court decision has ruled that the mob does NOT own that land. Of
> course in the end the law and court decisions proved to be irrelevant too.

Because law arises from politics, and not vice-versa.

> And in no shape way or form do you agree with me. Every defender of that
> evil ignorant anti-science anti-enlightenment mob has the same basic
> mantra, "it would be nice if the telescope could be built *BUT* ..."

NONE OF US ARE AGREEING WITH THE MOB - we are attempting to *understand*
the mob, something you seem incapable of doing.  Much as you seem incapable
of understanding anyone writing to you in the thread.   I've repeatedly
stated that I don't agree with the mob and the telescope should have been
built.  I understand why people on the list call you a troll.  you are  a

> *> So you understand that it's a politcal problem, not a science problem
>> (or a legal problem, it seems).*
> I understand it's a criminal problem, and I understand that the criminals
> have won.
>> >> If they had not that telescope would be generating new knowledge
>>> about the universe for the entire human race right now, but that didn't
>>> happen because the mob successfully transmitted their ignorance worshiping
>>> meme.
>> *> Welcome to politics.*
> That's not politics that's just crime.

It's all much the same.

> And I do NOT welcome the ignorance worshiping meme that infected the mob
> even if I grudgingly admire its skill at rapid reproduction. I don't
> welcome people who feel it is their duty to defend those infected with that
> meme eother.

We're not defending it.  You are stupid.

> >>The P word implies the rule of law
>> >*No, it does not at all.  The American Revolution was illegal. *
> Illegal under one set of laws and legal or even mandatory under other
> sets.

Which sets? Now you are going to spout some freedom rubbish when it was
really about a small group of middle-class people not wanting to pay taxes.

> The very first thing the American Revolutionaries did was set up their own
> laws and build gallows so they could hang people who violated those rules,
> it's the same with every revolution. But the only law the mob on that
> mountain follows is "if I say I own something then I own it and it doesn't
> matter what you or the courts or anybody else says about it".

Power comes from the barrel of a gun.  Unfortunately the mob had the
numbers and so the telescope was cancelled.

Again - I'm fairly sure everyone on the list feels this was a bad idea, but
unlike you, we are making an attempt to get our head around why it
happened, instead of just going "oh no Luddites bad, I refuse to think
beyond that" - what is needed is people with more of a clue about politics
than you to counter-organise.

> > *I generally lurk on this list and don't read it that often*
> I think such a long tradition should be honored and continue.

Perhaps I should just work on killfiling the obviously stupid people on the

  ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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