[ExI] fermi question alive and well

[Will Steinberg]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 12:16 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:01 AM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> We are looking for a civilization that makes use of high frequency
>>> light and outputs low frequency light as a waste product, and we know
>>> exactly how to look for it, with infrared and microwave telescopes, but
>>> we've never seen even a hint of it.
>>>
>>
>> *> An ant looking only for giant anthills would find no evidence in their
>> opinion of our civilization. *
>>
>
> That's because ants are dumb and don't even know the difference between
> civilization and non-civilization.
>

What makes you think humans are smart enough to know the differenre?


> > 1) Alternate energy sources/entropy sinks which we do not yet understand
>>
>
> When you reject the law that says Entropy always increases you're so
> you're invoking not only new physics but new logic and you're doing it so
> you can explain a mystery *THAT DOES NOT EXIST*. The great silence is not
> a mystery because the argument ET must exist because astronomy can come up
> with some big numbers doesn't hold water because biology can come up with
> even bigger numbers.
>

Assuming they use a Dyson Sphere.


> > 2) Deliberate cloaking
>> The second might be more likely.
>>
>
> Wow, we must be hyper important for ET to go to all the trouble of
> trashing the laws of physics and logic that operate the universe just so
> they can keep us ignorant!
>

Assuming they use a Dyson Sphere.

> "We know exactly how to look for incoming enemy planes, and we don't see
>> a hint of them", then a stealth bomber came and blew up whoever said that
>>
>
> If that ET stealth bomber can violate the second law of thermodynamics
> then it is far more ridiculous than a flying carpet because the carpet only
> violates the laws of conservation of momentum and energy, but when you mess
> around with the second law you're messing around with the very laws of
> logic. I predict that if the multiverse exists some of the laws of physics
> may be different in other universes but the one thing they'd all have in
> common is the second law.
>

Assuming they use a Dyson Sphere.

Why do you assume a Dyson Sphere is the only way for a civilization to get
lots of energy?  For all we know, they've figured out a way to harness
energy that causes the expansion of the universe.  Or, idk they made
themselves a small black hole and throw planets into it and collect Hawking
radiation and use lasers to send the the energy back to their planet.

What I'm proposing specifically may be ridiculous, but I think it stands
pretty clearly that we have no way of knowing whether ET use some kind of
energy collection method that we do not yet have a physics framework for.
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