[ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging?

Sun Sep 8 17:32:03 UTC 2019

I see DHEA on the list of anti-aging supplements.  What do you think of
it?  If there is any evidence that it increases testosterone then I can't
take it.  It would kick my prostate cancer into overdrive.  I probably
would be dead by now if I had a normal testosterone level - it's way below
the bottom normal level (and yet I still have a sex life - go figure).

I see on the Good Rx web site that 30 rapamune tablets, 1 mg. with discount
runs about $151.00  So if you take 6 one day a week, then you get 5 weeks
out of one script- right?

I would urge you to post any anti-aging info you come across, or just email
me with it.  I take many supplements (incl. b12 at 15000 units a day -
seems you can't OD on that one).

I am going to be like Woody Allen - I am going to cheat Death by not dying!

Cheers!

bill w

On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 12:14 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Quite welcome.  I did see your reference after I responded.   I take 6mg
> rapamycin once a week FYI.
>
> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Many thanks.  I assume you got my email, sent to the group, which
>> included the web site of your doctor.  So I read it all.  I am already on
>> metformin for very borderline diabetes II.
>>
>> I emailed your doctor and we'll see what he says.  I found Rapamune on
>> Wikipedia and it seems to be the one we are talking about - about $150 a
>> month with discount.  will also ask my pharmacist.  The prescription is for
>> 30 pills, but you say take it once a week, eh?  So it really isn't $150 a
>> month unless you are taking 30 pills once a week!!
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:54 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bill-
>>>
>>> I probably should have been more clear with my terminology as I was
>>> speaking casually with my terms :-).   I'll respond to your questions and
>>> provide some additional background.
>>>
>>> Rapamycin is a drug, not a supplement which is its own can of worms
>>> unfortunately.  It has an extremely interesting history IMO, as the basis
>>> of it comes from a microorganism discovered in the soil of Easter Island.
>>> It's one of these serendipitous scientific discoveries.   It eventually
>>> went on to be commercialized and used as part of an immune suppressing
>>> cocktail in organ transplant patients.   It may seem paradoxical to be
>>> talking about using an immune suppressor to fight aging and improve the
>>> immune response, but like many drugs, it's all about dosing.
>>>
>>> At high daily levels of intake, rapamycin will suppress the immune
>>> system.   At lower, less frequent doses, it does not have the same
>>> effects.   As a result, people experimenting with it for life
>>> extension/healthspan purposes generally take a dose once a week that a
>>> patient taking it for immunosuppression would be taking daily.   Rapamycin
>>> has a half live of around 72 hours so even taking it once a week will
>>> result in multi day benefits in theory.   That's what I meant by pulsing.
>>> I only take it once a week.
>>>
>>> If you're interested in exploring the biochemistry angle, reading up on
>>> mTOR is the best starting point.  mTOR stands for mammalian (or
>>> mechanistic) Target of Rapamycin.  It's the complex that rapamycin (and
>>> metformin through a different spot in the pathway) interact with.   mTOR is
>>> heavily involved in nutrient sensing and figuring out if you are well fed
>>> or starving.   At the risk of oversimplification, rapamycin/metformin
>>> potentially trick your body into activating a lot of beneficial pathways
>>> that are activated when the body senses we are not getting enough
>>> calories.  It's the same idea behind calorie restriction advocates who IMO
>>> lead a difficult lifestyle that I'm not interested in.   I won't got
>>> further into mTORC1 versus mTORC2 other than to say again that the idea
>>> behind taking a single dose weekly is to get the good effects from mTOR
>>> inhibitors like rapamycin while minimizing the bad ones.
>>>
>>> So back to the drug angle...While it is possible to get rapamycin in
>>> bulk from Chinese manufacturers, I would NOT recommend this.  Beyond having
>>> to go through the hassle of getting a third party to provide purity
>>> analysis (which I consider mandatory), the dosing is in low milligrams
>>> which makes it more difficult to measure.   Anyways, you may also find some
>>> sellers online that will do it without a prescription but I don't recommend
>>> that route either.
>>>
>>> If you are interested in trying it, I would recommend checking out the
>>> website of Dr. Alan Green at https://rapamycintherapy.com/.   He was a
>>> retired physician who is around your age (slightly older now I believe) who
>>> was experiencing a lot of negative aging effects including what he
>>> diagnosed as an enlarged heart.  He was getting winded walking the dog up a
>>> neighborhood hill and decided to research aging remedies in the
>>> literature.   He came across rapamycin (and metformin) as potential
>>> therapies, and to cut to the chase, spent a year+ self experimenting with
>>> rapamycin.  Anecdotally, he had great improvements in his cardiac profile
>>> (rapamycin is known to improve the effects he was experiencing in dogs),
>>> and felt better overall.   He then decided to reopen a practice for
>>> rapamycin (and potentially metformin) therapy so people could actually get
>>> an off label prescription for rapamycin.
>>>
>>> In theory, you could get your own physician to write you a prescription
>>> for rapamycin but I think you will find they don't know anything about the
>>> drug, and if they quickly look it up, they will think you are crazy in
>>> asking for an immunosuppressor which is the on label use.   If they are
>>> open to learning and not gunshy, you might be able to convince them to give
>>> it to you off label.
>>>
>>> In my case, I went to see Dr. Green because I am in his geographic
>>> area.  He charges a very reasonable fee, will respond to follow up
>>> questions, and was a really nice guy in person.  I spent most of an
>>> afternoon chatting with him during our consult.   He is old school and will
>>> not attempt to put stuff through insurance (which would likely deny it
>>> anyways, but you could try on your own).
>>>
>>> If you do decide you want to experiment with it, and find a
>>> prescription, I would recommend you also download the GoodRx app or
>>> something similar.  It's great for any meds not covered by insurance FYI
>>> and I strongly suggest checking it out.  It will give you substantial
>>> discounts on most meds including rapamycin and make the cost a lot more
>>> manageable.   You are probably looking at around $1200 for a year's supply
>>> of rapamycin with the discount.
>>>
>>> An alternative to rapamycin that would be easier to procure, is very
>>> cheap, and generally very well tolerated would be metformin.   It is in the
>>> same ballpark in terms of suppressing mTOR but without getting into the
>>> details may not be as effective while still providing many benefits.
>>>  Metformin would probably cost you a few dollars for a 90 day supply as it
>>> is generic and cheap.  If you do go with metformin, please supplement B12
>>> as it can affect your ability to absorb it in the gut long term.
>>>
>>> I also want to say that it should go without saying, I'm not a doc or
>>> giving medical advice, and while I believe both of these drugs are safe
>>> when used properly, I am shooting in the dark here along with everyone else
>>> self experimenting and there are risks, and you should do a lot of your own
>>> due diligence before making a decision.
>>>
>>> I'm happy to answer any additional questions to the best of my ability
>>> if you decide to go down the rabbit hole though.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 11:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable
>>>> side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1
>>>> and minimizes hitting mTORC2.   The literature indicates the anti aging
>>>> effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter.
>>>> dylan
>>>>
>>>> I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of
>>>> course in biochemistry.  first, what does 'pulsing' mean?  Ditto
>>>> 'hitting'.  Second, where did you get your supplement?
>>>>
>>>> I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side
>>>> effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin.
>>>> Please tell me all you can.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!   bill w
>>>>
>>>>
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