[ExI] Mental Phenomena

Mon Jan 6 16:22:14 UTC 2020

OH, sorry.  I duplicated the two scientific discovery references.  The
second reference that just came out this morning that could be the
discovery of a binding neuron system was this
Scientists Uncover a Never-Before-Seen Type of Signal Occurring in The
Human Brain
<https://www-sciencealert-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.sciencealert.com/a-newly-discovered-signal-in-neurons-hints-at-the-power-of-the-human-brain/amp?usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D&amp_js_v=0.1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencealert.com%2Fa-newly-discovered-signal-in-neurons-hints-at-the-power-of-the-human-brain>

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:07 AM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh wow.  Ever more scientific evidence continues to come out very nearly
> identical to what “Representational Qualia Theory
> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Representational-Qualia/6>” has been
> predicting.  Last month there was this “*Distinct Laminar Processing of
> Local and Global Context
> <https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30723-2>” *describing
> how the brain is able to get the strawberry from a cortical column pixel,
> um I man a “forest from the tree”.
>
>
>
> We’ve been instructing the animators working on our video to
> hypothetically place the binding neuron in the outer most layer of the
> cortex, computationally binding these cortical columns.  And this “*Distinct
> Laminar Processing of Local and Global Context
> <https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30723-2>”* just came
> out this morning.  It looks to me like this new discovery could be
> exactly describing neural logic with multiple inputs that could react
> differently, based on the diverse physical qualities of the many inputs, in
> the outer most layer of the cortex.
>
>
>
> Again, this is all exactly as we’ve portrayed knowledge of a strawberry
> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/> laid out in the visual
> cortex:
> [image: image.png]
>
>
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/16f0my54ba7m7SliUDkGdvcxdfOJmfZiI/view?usp=sharing>
>
> With the Deep “Longitudinal Fissure” between the two hemispheres, and the
> “Transverse occipital sulcus” splitting the visual cortex, yet again, into
> 4 sections, from top to bottom making room so the cortex can scrunch down
> in this cross of folds in the center of vision, to make room for the higher
> resolution of pixels at the center of the field of vision.
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh, and John asked:
>
>
>
> *“Suppose we merged our brains Avatar like as you suggest, the resulting
> creature, Brent Clark,  would have to be consistent in its use of qualia
> just as we are and that includes the memories that both of us have. For the
> sake of argument let's suppose our red and green qualia really are
> reversed, if so what would Brent Clark experience when he looked at a ripe
> tomato?”*
>
>
>
> Again, you are talking about composite functionality, while I’m talking
> elemental physics, out of which such composite functionality is composed.
> In your brain the definition of redness is wired to glutamate.  In your
> partner's brain, the definition of redness is wired to glycine.  You
> could bind things at different levels of functionality.  But just as you
> point out, the higher you go in your binding, things become exponentially
> more complex.  But you could still find creative ways to do things, or just
> simply bind it at the elemental level.
>
>
>
> You of course would want to keep some of your memories bound to particular
> sensations private, and not share things like that.  Though it would be
> hard to include the binding of the same name to different physical
> qualities, you could find ways to enable such in a more complex
> computationally bound way.
>
>
>
> So, you are facing your partner with both of your visual cortexes
> computationally bound.  Your visual cortex has knowledge of what is in
> front of you.  Your partners visual cortex has knowledge of what is behind
> you.  You are looking at a strawberry, above and behind the head of your
> partner.  Assuming you were doing the computational binding at the simplest
> elemental level this is what it would be like.  As you rotate the
> strawberry around from in front of you, to behind you, as this knowledge of
> the strawberry moved between your visual cortex and your partner’s, it
> would change from redness to greenness, just as it does in our video, when
> the cell phone moves across the field of light between the strawberry and
> the eye.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 6:35 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 11:27 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> *> When you experience a redness quality, when you are dreaming or not,
>>> there must be something, that is that redness quality you are
>>> experiencing.  *
>>>
>>
>> But that redness qualia could not exist in isolation, it needs contrast
>> to have a meaning and only other color qualia can provide that. So the
>> important thing determining what you subjective experience will be is how
>> many distinguishable labels (aka color qualia) you can stick on wavelengths
>> of light not the particulars of what chemicals the labels are made of.
>>
>>
>>> > *My redness could be like your greenness,*
>>>
>>
>> We already know some things about that, we know that my redness can't be
>> identical to your redness because we have a different brain structure, and
>> we both know that whatever qualia the other uses to label electromagnetic
>> waves with a frequency of 400 terahertz it's consistent, I put the same
>> label on both strawberries and ripe tomatoes and you do the same. But is my
>> redness closer to your redness or your greenness?  Suppose we merged our
>> brains Avatar like as you suggest, the resulting creature, Brent Clark,
>>  would have to be consistent in its use of qualia just as we are and that
>> includes the memories that both of us have. For the sake of argument let's
>> suppose our red and green qualia really are reversed, if so what would
>> Brent Clark experience when he looked at a ripe tomato?
>>
>> There is no unique answer to that, any consistent labeling system would
>> do; perhaps he would see a tomato as my red (your green) or perhaps as your
>> red (my green) or maybe he would see a combination of both and see a tomato
>> as being what we both think of as yellow. Brent Clark would know the
>> answer, he would know what it's like for Brent Clark to look at a tomato,
>> but that's all he'd know. And neither Brent Allsop or John Clark would have
>> learned anything about how the other views the world.
>>
>>
>>> > *If you engineered someone to be identical to you, except that
>>> person swapped all redness/glutamate with glycine/grenness, and visa versa,
>>> you would function identically, but qualitatively your knowledge would be
>>> physically different.  My redness would be like your grenness.*
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how the knowledge could be different if there is no way you
>> could even KNOW that such a change had happened, and there wouldn't be as
>> long as the change was made consistently. There would be a objective
>> difference in brain structure but that change would produce no change in
>> objective behavior, and there would be no change in subjective experience
>> at all.
>>
>>
>>> *> The idea of a single neuron firing with with either glutamate or
>>> glycine is just an over simplified example to simplify understand how we
>>> might bridge the explanatory gap, or find out whether your redness is more
>>> like my grenness, or not. *
>>>
>>
>> I don't think that is over simplified. In fact I think if you're topic
>> is qualia then worrying about the detailed chemistry of glutamate and
>> glycine is being overly complex, the only thing you need to know about them
>> is that there is at least one physical process that can distinguish between
>> the two chemicals.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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