[ExI] Essential Upload Data

Re Rose rocket at earthlight.com
Sat May 23 01:22:46 UTC 2020

Ben, I have explained, repeatedly, and in as much detail as I possibly am
able to considering the limitations of explanations on a list, exactly why
I believe a copy of you is not and can not be you.

I also have described why I believe making a copy is not possible, and that
a "good enough" copy is not "good enough" if your consciousness cannot
access it.

I've invoked other authors and suggested readings. I also suggested general
areas I think are helpful to read up in for background, and for fun,
because the ideas leading up to making and utilizing copies of individuals'
neural coding patterns and corrrelated neural pathways is flat out

Magical thinking is NOT involved in my descriptions. I think it is magical
thinking to imagine that your consciousness will leap over into another,
separate agent that has a copy of your neural data. No one yet has said
*how* that will happen, even though I have asked that question a grillion,
maybe even a brillion times to this list. That's a lot of times.

I've also said that while I agree that information is the most
important thing to preserve, the information in a conscious being is not
solely stored in the brain but throughout the corpus of the body, and not
in mere atomic positions but within non-linear systems that have multiple
possible equilibria but are in a specific equilibria. These become
de-entrained (exactly as they do during aging process, but farther away
from equilibria) and without initial boundary conditions it will not be
possible for them to become re-entrained in the same equilibria. That
essential  information is not copiable, and cannot be retrieved.

Reading the whole of what I wrote, I can do as I write it. I take time and
I try to be thoughtful so as to communicate my ideas as clearly as I can in
this forum. However, making sure you read what I wrote - that, I cannot do.

May I say, throwing up ad-hominem objections, such as positing I have not
explained my reasons when I have or saying I indulge in magical thinking
when I do not, is not a studied and thoughtful parry. It is more of a
drive-by opinioning.

And, ps, I think this is a *very *important consideration for the cryonics
community. If we throw our trust and research efforts behind uploading and
copies and do not consider that the reanimated agents are not
reanimiations of US, which is the goal, but in fact are independant agents
- well, if we do that, we've thrown away our chance to actually be there in
the future. It is a dire mistake to make.

That is why I have put so much energy into my posts. But I am starting to
feel like I have said everything several times now. No one has to agree but
just consider how in the world you will come to occupy the consciouness of
another agent who happens to have an upload of your information and maybe
you will come to see things as I do.

I would like all of us to get to see the future, and not to
accidently leave it to our "copy-heirs" because we didn't take the time to
think this through and decided that another being with our memories was
"us", when it's clearly not.



Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:52:56 +0100
From: Ben <ben at zaiboc.net>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data
Message-ID: <1d99a893-8a52-5257-707e-f69d237e1181 at zaiboc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

On 22/05/2020 13:34,? Re Rose wrote:
> I have said the following about a grillion times - a copy thinking it
> is me doesn't make it me

Well, you've certainly said it a number of times, but the odd thing is
that you've never really explained why this should be true. I, and
several others, think that a good-enough 'copy' (I'm becoming less keen
on that word, because it leads to confused thinking, imo) has to be
'you'. The only alternative is if magical thinking is right, and
supernatural phenomena? are actually real, instead of imaginary. Which I
severely doubt.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think that information is the only
important thing, with respect to individual identity. Not atoms, not any
mystical unspecified essence, just information. This means, inescapably,
that if the information that constitutes the mind that is 'me', is
duplicated or translated into another embodiment, then the mind that is
me is duplicated or translated. This means that the totally unfamiliar
and bizarre phenomenon of there being two or more 'you's is actually
possible, even though it has never occurred before.

The only thing to be determined is, what level of detail is good enough,
and that's doubtless something that we'll find out in time.

Ben Zaiboc
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