[ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 204, Issue 63

[William Flynn Wallace]

 You are a dove, William, but hawks have their place in society, modern or

If by 'dove' you mean someone who wants to avoid physical conflict 'at all
cost', then no - that's not me.  In fact I am probably a hawk who is afraid
of going too far if I get angry.  (If they won't act right, I'll bomb them
back into the Stone Age!)  My children provoked me many times to anger and
I had to fight it.  I don't believe in hitting children, which is what
anger usually leads a parent to do, or perhaps hitting them too hard or too
long.  One can be a very firm disciplinarian without the threat of
violence.  I believe in negative punishment (details available upon
request).

If getting angry with her son was the only alternative the rich Bel Air
lady could have thought of, I feel sorry for her or someone whose parental
techniques are so limited.   I can think of a large number of things which
could control a brat without a hint of anger.  Even with a smile.  Details
upon request.

Anger is sometimes the only way to effectively communicate what one
will tolerate and what one will not.

I believe that you could give me almost unlimited examples of how anger
communicates 'that's enough' and I could give you alternatives not
involving anger.  (one personal one:  my chairman told me that if I didn't
start coming to faculty meetings he would break my tenure, all said with a
straight face, no emotions.  I did not believe that he could do that, but
it was just easier for me to start going - taking a book with me).

bill w

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:05 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org:
>
> > One of my answers on Quora:
> >
> > I think that anger has no place in modern society and wish we could
> excise
> > it from the gene pool. It is irrational and often makes us do things we
> > regret later, if we are able to (we attack those stronger and pay the
> > price). Sure, it can make your fighting hormones flow, and that can be an
> > advantage in an attack, but just a bit overdone and it can be disaster.
> >
> >  Among the worst is getting mad with children because they are not
> behaving
> > as you want them to, and so you hit them, often too hard. Or someone
> > weaker, usually, like a woman. Yes, I am aware that women can hit men and
> > abuse them.
> >
> > It?s just really good for nothing in the modern world.
>
>
> Anger, vengeance, and violence, even if detrimental to the individuals
> practicing them, are essential for our social and cultural evolution.
> Life is a lot like the classic "hawks versus doves" computer
> simulation that Dawkins wrote about at length. Basically if too few
> individuals are willing to take revenge on hawks even at personal
> cost, then the hawks over-run the system. Once the hawks come to
> predominate, then it becomes the doves that have the selective
> advantage since they are not prone to get into costly fights. Ideally
> there is a Nash equilibrium in society between hawks and doves. You
> are a dove, William, but hawks have their place in society, modern or
> not, also.
>
> Also on a more personal note, I once did some freelance computer work
> for a rich lady in Bel Air. She was a single mom raising a somewhat
> spoiled young boy. Her vanity caused her to get botox injections to
> stave off the lines and wrinkles on her brow. As a result, she could
> no longer control her bratty son because he would do bad things and
> even though she was furious with him, her face could not express her
> anger. Now imagine what her own kid or a full grown adult stranger
> might have done to her if she not only could not express her anger,
> but could not feel it in the first place.
>
> Anger is sometimes the only way to effectively communicate what one
> will tolerate and what one will not.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
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>
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