[ExI] libertarian city - from Quora
stathisp at gmail.com
Wed Aug 11 23:12:01 UTC 2021
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 08:31, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:19 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have
>>>> them imposed from above.
>>> How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in all
>>> the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the services
>>> will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if they are to
>>> work at all.
>>> Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house
>>> is at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I
>>> "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your
>>> house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service
>>> Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house,
>>> and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you.
>>> Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're
>>> infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick -
>>> and vice versa.
>>> Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law,
>>> people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think the
>>> police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. It
>>> doesn't matter how many guns you have.
>> The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially
>> endowed with capital or power. Those who don’t want to participate or
>> follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism
>> does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power
>> structures. But maybe it doesn’t work and hierarchies run things better.
> It doesn't work at all. All four of those examples are cases where you
> can not have both functioning institutions/infrastructure and the presence
> of anyone who is excluded from society. In each case, you would have to
> physically remove the excluded person (and thus apply force without their
> consent) or kill them (and thus apply force without their consent) in order
> for those who opted into the institution/infrastructure to be able to use
> them. In other words, the mere presence of one who has opted out is
> essentially an application of force against those who opted in.
Yes, you would have to apply force without consent, because a society
couldn’t work otherwise. You couldn’t have basic things such as cars and
roads if some people decided that they don’t have to stop at a red light.
But the force would not be applied by police at the request of a king,
president or wealthy person. The difference is in who makes the rules and,
as a general principle, that the rules will the minimum required.
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