[ExI] [Extropolis] determinism

Sun Jul 18 14:23:25 UTC 2021

In some jury trials a judge can decide to split the cause:  like the
company was 60% responsible and the person was 40% responsible.  That's
splitting the determining factors.   bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 8:39 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> So they’re determined except that they aren’t. That’s not very clear. If
> they’re determined, like Pavlov’s dog, we only have the illusion of choice.
>
> If by “determined”, you mean influenced, then sure, I’d say that free will
> and determinism are compatible. Otherwise I think it’s a bucket of hogwash.
>
> If people really can’t ever control their actions, we need to radically
> change society, but we can’t, because everything is inevitable. Or maybe we
> will, because it’s inevitable.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> On Jul 17, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 11:53, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Your unconscious mind alerts you to the fact that you could really use
>> some ice cream right now, so you get up and get it.  You do have a choice
>> as to whether you will get up and get it.  If you do, you can say that your
>> impulse caused your fetching the dessert - your hunger for that determined
>> your actions.  And involved a choice.  This is internal.  If you put
>> something away in the freezer and your eye hits the ice cream, you may grab
>> it and take it with you.  Not the determining factor is external but you
>> still had a choice.
>>
>> Now take Pavlov's dog:  after conditioning the dog salivates to the
>> bell.  It has no choice.  The dog and us cannot control our autonomic
>> nervous systems.  Here determinism is beyond our control - no choice.  bill
>> w
>>
>
> Yes, but the error is in saying that you don’t have a free choice if the
> choice is determined. All choices are determined, but some choices are
> determined by reflexes or by someone holding a gun to your head, and those
> are not free, while other choices are determined by what you want to do,
> and those are free.
>
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 8:32 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Determined means you have no choice. It’s a foregone conclusion. That’s
>>> not a choice at all if it was impossible for you to pick something
>>> different.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Jul 17, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 00:04, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> they could be determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the
>>>> world and so on. You would behave in a chaotic and purposeless way   I
>>>> think that's a big non sequitur.  If my behaviors and thoughts were
>>>> determined by my values, etc.  It would be chaos?  My values lead to no
>>>> purpose?  Doesn't make any sense to me.   bill w
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, there was a typo in my original reply. Libertarian free will
>>> requires that your actions be undetermined, but if your actions were
>>> undetermined they could NOT be determined by any psychological factors such
>>> as your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. So this is a
>>> bad definition of free will: fortunately no-one has it, no-one thinks they
>>> have it, and no-one wants to have it. People who say that they believe they
>>> have it usually don’t understand the meaning of the words they are using,
>>> such as “undetermined”.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 9:39 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 at 06:30, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There has to be at least some determinism.  Free Will, whatever it
>>>>>> may be, cannot prevent the environment from making changes in us, like
>>>>>> solar rays causing a mutation in us, or some toxin giving us cancer.  These
>>>>>> things can also affect us mentally - some toxins will lower IQ or make us
>>>>>> depressed.  Free will can come in in our choices as to what toxins to
>>>>>> expose ourselves to, such as staying inside and wearing SPF of 50 when we
>>>>>> go out.  Some are unavoidable.  bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Determinism is not exclusive of psychological factors. If your actions
>>>>> were undetermined, it would mean that they could be determined by your
>>>>> preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. You would behave in
>>>>> a chaotic and purposeless way and would be unable to function or survive.
>>>>> This is an absurd way to define free will, which is why most philosophers
>>>>> reject it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>>
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>>> --
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>
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> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
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