[ExI] addiction

Thu Apr 7 14:21:16 UTC 2022

Whether an abstraction such as intelligence or will power exists is
entirely up to how we want to define the term.  I could say the same thing
about demon possession or souls.  Show me how to objectively measure it and
I can accept it into science.  Then we can relate it to brain functions.
So far, I can still see only a circular concept.  "Willpower is what is
happening when we make ourselves do something."  That is simply an
embarrassment.  bill w

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 9:17 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Are you suggesting that willpower isn't a neurological phenomenon?  I
> don't even know how to address something so inane besides throwing some
> papers at you
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744643/
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678016/
> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0258884
>
> https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780190267278.001.0001/acprof-9780190267278-chapter-18
>
> https://scholar.harvard.edu/kreimanlab/publications/neural-correlates-consciousness-perception-and-volition
>
> In short--yes, obviously, volition happens in the brain.  Willpower is the
> ability to make yourself do something.  That even is manifest in the tissue
> of the brain itself.  Yes, it can be measured, though we may not completely
> agree on how, or have the right tools to do it perfectly yet.  But it is
> clearly a neurophysical phenomenon.  To believe anything else is some weird
> anti-scientific boomer bullshit, to speak frankly.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Will, I don't see any interruption in an addict's ability to control
>> voluntary behavior - do you?  Aphasia, ataxia etc. - all inabilities we
>> understand somewhat and all not amenable to voluntary changes.  Those are
>> not good comparisons to addiction.  As for willpower, that is a circular
>> concept:  if a person can do something or stop something, we say he has
>> willpower.  If he doesn't we say he has little will power.  Totally
>> circular.  If you are suggesting that willpower can be measured some other,
>> valid, way, and that can be traced to brain changes, then we have a
>> different discussion.  bill w
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I heartily disagree with this.  Would you say someone with aphasia
>>> won't, not can't, speak?  You act as if voluntary action is a given.
>>> Voluntary action requires a neurological event to take place.  If the event
>>> cannot take place because the brain is broken, the motion CAN'T happen.
>>> Human will is not magic, it's a neurological action and it can be broken or
>>> slow or wonky just like any neurological action.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022, 11:35 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Addiction is not the same as having an irresistible impulse, a term
>>>> created by defense lawyers).  Such an impulse doesn't not exist, in my
>>>> opinion.  Yes, you can't stop things like vomiting.  Truly that is
>>>> involuntary.
>>>>
>>>> But can't stop lifting your arm to your mouth to eat or smoke?  Nope.
>>>> Not involuntary.  Not close.
>>>>
>>>> So addicts are acting through voluntary behaviors.  They can stop them
>>>> any time they want to, as I did for smoking and drinking alcohol, but of
>>>> course they don't want to.  (Let's not even bother with 'gumption' and
>>>> 'willpower').
>>>>
>>>> I agree that withdrawal can be nasty.  I had that once for Tramadol
>>>> when the doctor screwed up (more likely his nurse).  It was bad but not
>>>> terrible.  Ditto for smoking.  I had no withdrawal from alcohol.
>>>>
>>>> So my point is that attaching the word 'addict' to a person seems to
>>>> make us think that he is quite different from us, and he simply isn't.  He
>>>> can quit at any time.
>>>>
>>>> And calling a person a shopping addict or sex addict is simply absurd.
>>>>
>>>> The psychotics I have known were in full control of their behavior, but
>>>> not their thinking (delusions and hallucinations).  No irresistible
>>>> impulses here though the disorder we used to call hebephrenic schizophrenia
>>>> might qualify.
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure that there is a good use for the term addict.  Maybe to
>>>> describe people who do something too much, and that's all.
>>>>
>>>> So - let's call addictive behavior what it is.  Voluntary.  Addicts are
>>>> people who won't, not can't, quit.   bill w
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