[ExI] Why stop at glutamate?

Brent Allsop brent.allsop at gmail.com
Thu Apr 13 20:40:06 UTC 2023

Hi Giovani,
I wish I could understand you, because it sounds like you are saying there
are no such thing as color qualities.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 1:45 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *a single simple stand alone elemental quality of conscious experience
> like redness*But that is what we are trying to tell you Brent, there is
> no such a thing.
> There is not, there is not, not cold not hot.
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:38 PM Giovanni Santostasi <
> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Physics gravity is considered a negative form of energy (potential)
>> and kinetic energy is positive. These 2 seem to cancel perfectly out.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe#:~:text=The%20zero%2Denergy%20universe%20hypothesis,in%20the%20form%20of%20gravity
>> .
>> Energy and information are strongly related, so yes, one can consider the
>> idea of negative information. Jason gave some hints about this but also the
>> idea of anti-particle can be considered a type of anti-information. There
>> is a way to think about anti-particle where they are holes in a field, so
>> something absent in a continuum instead of something present with opposite
>> properties to matter.
>> But there are a lot of clues that the universe comes from nothing. To me
>> this is a solution to all the theological problems. There is no god,
>> because god was not necessary to create the universe. God is complex, the
>> universe was simple at the beginning so simple to be literally nothing.
>> Besides the total energy of the universe is zero there are other clues
>> that the Universe came from nothing. Consider Noether's theorem. It
>> basically states that the symmetry we find in nature, like the fact the
>> world doesn't change if we go left to right, or if we reverse time like a
>> in a movie (the laws stay the same) give rise to all the conservation laws
>> of physics like conservation of momentum, angular momentum, energy and so
>> on.
>> All physics can be rewritten as conservation laws.
>> There is incredible symmetry in the universe. It is not just in the
>> macroscopic world but at the QM level. Other esoteric laws like
>> conservation of charge, conservation of Lepton charge and so on are also
>> explained as symmetries. In fact symmetry is used as a tool to unify
>> the different forces of nature and show there is basically one force. We
>> have succeeded to unify basically 3 of them (EM, weak and strong) and we
>> are still struggling to unify gravity.
>> Why so much symmetry?
>> Think about it, what is the most symmetric entity possible?
>> Nothing.
>> And this is why there is zero energy in the universe, the universe is
>> flat overall, we have perfect conservation laws, and mind-blowing
>> symmetries all the way down.
>> A good book to contemplate on these ideas is:
>> https://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/1451624468
>> It is a well-known fact among physicists and notwithstanding attempts
>> like the above to popularize the idea so few non physicists grasp it. Here
>> we are discussing referents when the entire universe came from nothing. If
>> you can do it with the entire freaking universe you can do it with anything
>> else.
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 5:52 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 5:29 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 04:49, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:
>>>> > I want to make a correction to Ben's statement that is Turtles all
>>>> the
>>>> > way down. The Turtles go deep but not all the way down. It stops in a
>>>> > place similar to the way we derive set theory from the null set.
>>>> Hm, that's interesting. I was thinking about information (in the brain
>>>> specifically, and other similar machines), and that the informational
>>>> turtles go round in big complex loops, where every piece of information
>>>> is relative to other pieces of information, so in that sense there'd be
>>>> no end.
>>>> In the wider world, though, I'm sure you're right. I tried to read
>>>> about
>>>> information theory, conservation of information, etc., but it just
>>>> bamboozles me. The idea of the total energy (and presumably,
>>>> information) in the universe being zero does make sense, though (erm,
>>>> provided there can be such a thing as 'anti-information'?).
>>> Perhaps that's entropy (uncertainty)? A coin flip, for example, has
>>> entropy of 1 bit.
>>> The Heisenberg uncertainty principle shows us the more information we
>>> learn about some properties of a system, the more we must unlearn (make
>>> uncertain) other aspects of that system.
>>> Information is sometimes described by physicists as negative entropy. QM
>>> shows that learning information (acquiring negative entropy) requires an
>>> equal creation of more uncertainty (entropy). So in a way the conversation
>>> of information might be the deeper principle behind the second law of
>>> thermodynamics and the conservation of energy.
>>> Jason
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