[ExI] are qualia communicable? Was Why stop at glutamate?
brent.allsop at gmail.com
Sat Apr 15 12:00:27 UTC 2023
On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 4:25 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2023, 10:50 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Hi Jason,
>> On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 8:39 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> An elemental quality of everything Jason is describing is a standalone
>>>> pixel of a redness quality.
>>> I don't believe in such things. A pixel of redness only exists by virtue
>>> of it's relations to all the rest of a vastly complex brain. You can't
>>> pluck it out of the brain and treat it as an independent elemental entity.
>> Yes, we are simply making different falsifiable predictions, here. It is
>> now up to the experimentalist to falsify at least one of our competing
>> I don't think we have a camp on canonizer, yet based on anything like
>> your competing idea: "A pixel of redness only exists by virtue of it's
>> relations to all the rest of a vastly complex brain." I'd sure love to get
>> this canonized, somewhere, to see if anyone else would support it. I'm
>> very doubtful, but that belief could be falsified.
> I wouldn't really call that idea a camp, I consider it more a corollary of
> functionalism, or any emergentist account of mind/qualia.
You believe that way of thinking has utility, and will lead to a better
understanding of what consciousness is. I believe experimental
demonstration will prove that way of thinking is what has caused all the
"hard problems" and "explanatory gaps", and that if we change directions
(as in consciousness isn't a hard problem it's a color problem) then we
will finally resolve all the so called "hard problems" and finally bridge
the "explanatory gaps'', and only THEN will we be able to start
engineering, amplifying and uploading consciousness.
If you don't want to call that kind of lack of scientific consensus a
'camp' then what should I call it? Because no matter what you call it, it
is still the same thing.
> only the elemental qualities does.
>>> This pixel of elemental redness, and the resulting change from redness
>>>> to greenness, must identity match up with some objective description of the
>>>> It is simply discovering what this identity is, and figuring out how
>>>> elemental redness can be computationally bound with all the other stuff
>>>> that would be different, in different brains.
>>>> My prediction is that we will discover which of all our descriptions of
>>>> stuff in the brain is a description of redness, We finally know which camp
>>>> is THE ONE, we finally know the true color properties of things, hard
>>>> problem solved, we can eff the ineffable, since our terms and properties of
>>>> our subjective experiences would then be objectively grounded.
>>> I don't see how you can identify the common element between two
>>> individuals' red experience when there's no way (that I see) to determine
>>> whether or when two individuals even have the same red experience. Can you
>>> explain this process to me?
>> You identify whatever P1, glutamate, or whatever it is that is the
>> objective description of a subjective pixel with a redness quality.
> But how do we objectively determine a subjective quality? That's the part
> I don't understand.
First off, let me make sure we agree on some (platonic or mathematical?)
You can't teach a toddler their colors, with a book that has no colors in
it. You point to the red one and say: THAT is
red. (Note: Your are really pointing to the property of the toddlers
subjective knowledge of that)
You can't tell someone which colors different wavelengths of
light represent, without colors. You add a red color near the 700nm
section, and say 700nm light is THAT color.
If we agree on those facts, then:
Once we have the required dictionary (after exhaustive trial and error, and
you discover that is P1, and only P1 that has a redness quality), you take
P1, computationally bind it into someone's subjective experience, and say:
THAT is redness.
At which point the person may say: "Wow, THAT is my grenness, I must be
engineered to be different than everyone else."
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