[ExI] Symbol Grounding

[Giovanni Santostasi]

Ben,
I actually agree with 99 % of what you say and you have more patience than
me. Jason is an enlighted saint and I suspect that he is a very advanced
AI.
I was actually talking about Brent's drawing. Language centers are probably
among the highest in the hierarchy levels of abstraction and conceptual
centers. Yeah, Brent believes that strawberry redness is some fundamental
property when it is not. The directness and vividness of the experience are
just an illusion. He uses the word model when models are the opposite of
something direct. But it is right redness is a model but that actually
undermines most of the things he says about this.

Giovanni


On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 1:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 22/04/2023 23:36, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:
> > you don't need the language centers or just make it a bubble in the
> > conceptual models' cloud. Language is just another conceptual model
> > among the others.
>
> Thanks, Giovanni.
>
> I kept the 'language centres' separate mainly for the purposes of the
> discussion with Gordon, as he gives special importance to 'language'
> (human language), while ignoring (or at least refusing to engage with
> the fact) that the brain uses an internal language.
>
> Yes, they use more conceptual models and could belong in with the rest,
> but one thing that distinguishes them is that they have dedicated brain
> areas, whereas the other models that I'm talking about probably don't
> (or if they do, they haven't been discovered yet, afaik)
>
> I expect that the models I'm talking about (the bubbles) come and go, as
> needed, in a mental workspace that's used for many things.
>
> That's why I used a box to represent the language centres instead of a
> bubble (using the language of metaphor, suggesting that boxes are more
> permanent things, and bubbles are ephemeral).
>
> As with all things biological, it's is going to be more complicated than
> that of course. I expect workspace bubble models are important in human
> language processing as well, and the language-dedicated brain areas may
> also use temporary models that come and go...
>
> Actually it would be interesting to take brain scans of people who are
> learning a foreign language, at different stages of their learning.
>
> As for Brent's strawberry fetish etc., I've given up trying to make
> sense of his impenetrable jargon. Plenty of people have explained to
> him, at painful length, "doing what you've always done will get you what
> you've always got", but he just won't listen.
>
> But, yes, his diagram is the same as mine, just with a couple of details
> pulled out, and focusing only on vision. The eyes and 'perception
> process' are one of my arrows from the left, the 3D strawberry model
> should be one of the bubbles. What 'composed of subjective qualities'
> actually means is anybody's guess really. I strongly suspect it doesn't
> mean anything at all.
>
> Actually, the arrows going one-way only from the strawberry model to the
> other models may be a clue. That is obviously wrong, as the conceptual
> models have lots of links between them, feedback loops, connections to
> memory, etc.
>
> Ben
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