[ExI] Symbol Grounding

Sun Apr 23 20:43:25 UTC 2023

This is so frustrating.  I'm asking a simple, elementary school level
question.  I have friends not practiced in theories of consciousness, who
get this immediately.  Yet everyone here (except Gordon?)  just either
changes the subject completely (to the unrelated topic of what is required
for intelligence), or asks yet more questions, as you are doing here.

After I sent that first version, I realized it might have better revealed
the issue to have stated it like this:
How is it that a bunch of abstract words, like 'red', floating around
inside a chatbot's brain can end up with [image: green_border.png]

Instead of answers, all I get are "It's turtles all the way down."  Or
infinitely recursive questions as answers, or "Let's completely ignore that
'hard'* question and change the subject to an 'easy'* question like what is
required for something to be intelligent?"
The properties of things are observable or demonstratable physical facts
about those things.  I'm simply asking what are [image:
red_border.png] and [image:
green_border.png] properties of?
If they are properties of physical things, what are those physical things?
(Even an 8 year old knows how to find out what color things are)
If they are properties of different functions, what functions?  (How would
you test for this?)
If they are properties of different relationships, what relationships?
(How would you test for this?)
If they are properties of some spiritual realm, what/where is that?  (How
would you test for this?)
If they are properties of turtles all the way down, what is the difference
between  [image: red_border.png] turtles all the way down and [image:
green_border.png] turtles all the way down? (How would you test for this?)
......

* Chalmers' classifications of what he incorrectly thinks is a 'hard
problem' vs what is an 'easy problem.'
In reality, his so-called "hard problem" is the most trivially easy
problem, one of the first things we learned in elementary school.  It is
simply: "What is  [image: red_border.png]  a property of?"
Everyone making it too "hard" is the only problem.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 1:03 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 12:11 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Jason,
>> Why do you think a ChatBot can emagine [image: red_border.png], when a
>> congenitally blind person can't?
>>
>
> During training the AI's brain is built from scratch to interpret its
> sensory landscape (which takes the form of patterns within its
> environment). Some of those patterns relate to the descriptions,
> properties, and relations among colors as described by normally sighted
> people. Given that we know the AI can imagine shapes and scenes (an element
> of vision) how can you be so sure its brain did not develop other
> imaginative/sensory capacities related to vision, which might include color?
>
>
>> How is it that a bunch of abstract words, like 'red', floating around
>> inside a chatbot's brain can end up with  [image: red_border.png]
>> (unless magic happens here) .
>>
>
> How is it that a bunch of atomic ions, like 'calcium', floating around
> inside a primate's brain can end up with ��?
>
>
>>
>> Go ahead.  Communicate this same information transfer this email
>> achieves, using only text.
>>
>
> Communication depends on the capacities of a recipient's mind/brain. If
> you are a person with a vivid imagination or synesthesia, it is quite easy
> for me to communicate the experience of �� to you.
>
> Jason
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 10:58 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 12:44 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 4:18 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just some food for thought. I don't argue that it does or doesn't have
>>>>> this capacity, only that it isn't definitive to me either way.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How is the difference between [image: red_border.png] and "*RED*" not
>>>> absolutely definitive?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I can tell a person to "imagine a bright red firetruck." And despite no
>>> visual stimulus they could see �� in their mind.
>>>
>>> If a person can do it, then perhaps an AI can as well. We know it can
>>> imagine and draw objects from textual descriptions as a Giovanni showed.
>>> It's not definitive (in my opinion) that it cannot imagine colors as well.
>>> Early models could imagine shapes and three dimensional scenes despite
>>> never being trained on images, so it's not absurd to think it has other
>>> imaginative capabilities.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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