[ExI] Symbol Grounding
gsantostasi at gmail.com
Wed Apr 26 04:02:33 UTC 2023
Let's not bring god into the conversation. When we do experiment we care
about differences between groups or conditions. I already showed you the
graph of the 2 overlapping distributions. This is how you do science. You
look at the responses of a group to certain stimuli if you study color
perception. You could show them green or red and see how they respond.
Nobody thinks like you do about inverting colors, your greenness is my
redness kind of talk, really I never read a scientific paper that discussed
things in this way. It is a very alien way to think about these topics. Can
you try to talk in a more scientific way?
I have EEG systems available tell me what experiment you would do that will
bring some interesting insights to your search for redness. Try to write it
a scientific research proposal, no quality, knowledge of, or qualia needs
to be mentioned. Describe what is the hypothesis and the methodology of
On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 8:46 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> I really liked that video about the red strawberries. It's
> thought-provoking. I'm curious to get Brent's response. Maybe color is the
> wrong simple example to use for communicating about qualia. It worked well
> enough until we realized color perception is a subjective contextual
> process that did not evolve to favor reflecting (consensus) reality.
> Perceived color constancy is more important, that is, has been more
> adaptive for us. How about them apples... or strawberries.
> To quote my late friend and rapper Sean Byrne: "Nothing exists except for
> your perception, the pain of the past only serves as a lesson."
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 7:00 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Hi Jason,
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:09 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> as in say the strawberry is red, but it would answer the question: "What
>>>> is redness like for you." differently.
>>> I don't see why they would answer this question differently if
>>> everything got inverted, including all emotional associations. If you
>>> changed only the word, but left the emotional associations as they were,
>>> then you could perhaps get different descriptions.
>> I'm skipping a bunch of stuff that I think is less important, and
>> focusing on what I think is most important, but if I skip over something
>> important, don't let me brush over it.
>> Giovani, evidently you think even a person engineered to have red / green
>> qualia inversion, you would consider them to be indistinguishable, and that
>> the quality difference of the subjective knowledge wouldn't matter?
>> It sounds like Jason at least thinks the two would be qualitatively
>> different, and this difference is important, if you are asking what his
>> redness is like for each of them. Jason just has a problem with how we
>> would know, or how he would report that. For the moment, can we just say
>> we are God, for a bit. And we can know if the redness is now greenness,
>> even though the person wouldn't know, since all of his memories and
>> references have been remapped.
>> The prediction is the future, we will be able to read people's minds, and
>> objectively observe whether it is Jason's redness, or Jason's greenness,
>> via neural ponytails, or whatever.
>> The critically important part is we need to focus on only the important
>> thing, the quality of the redness. Not what the person thinks that quality
>> is called, whether he is lying or whatever. Let's only focus on the
>> quality of the redness experiences. Would God say that quality has changed
>> or not, regardless of what the person says.
>> So, again, if you engineered someone to be a qualia invert. God could
>> honestly tell those two people that one's redness was like the other's
>> And even though they would function differently, when asked what is
>> redness like for you, they would know, since God told them, that their
>> redness was like the other's greenness, so despite them being otherwise
>> identical, they were qualitatively different.
>> So, would you agree that the quality of their consciousness is dependent
>> on what their redness is like, and if one redness quality is like the
>> other's greenness, that would be important and objectively observable?
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