[ExI] What is "Elemental Redness"?

[Giovanni Santostasi]

*"Qualia certainly correlate to physical reality, but declaring
causationthere seems like a bit of a stretch - at least a begging of the
questionof materialism. It's a very odd sort of causation where the
physical properties of thepresumptive proximate cause have nothing to do
with the characteristicsof the caused phenomena*Ben,
Yeah, when I was reading this I almost spilled my coffee by laughing. All
this after you begging not to write some self-jargon nonsense. I really
don't get it either. The only thing I can imagine is that the particular
chemistry and anatomy of the brain is required according to Brent (and
others) for consciousness (and qualia supposedly are "elemental" conscious
experiences that is bs in my opinion).
Of course, my position is that the anatomy of the brain and the use of
neurotransmitters and electrical pulses was the best biology could do given
the material available and the constraints of evolution and biology. Maybe
occasionally there is a biological clever solution or design but in
general, there are better ways to do things.

Even if particular molecules were needed to reproduce perfectly a
particular person then we can still do this by simulating the entire brain
including neurotransmitters. Do you want to give it grounding as Gordon
insists then give it access to a camera, and bodily sensations put it in a
robot, and so on...
Maybe it is a valid question to find out what level of complexity is needed
to create awareness and what minimal functionality is required. But my bet
is that most complexity in the brain is redundant and not necessary, it is
a bug, not a feature.



On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 1:44 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 01/05/2023 20:22, Gadersd wrote:
> >
> > I think you have “communicating” and “convincing” confused. I am
> > confident that most members on the list understand what your theory
> > is. The problem is that we just don’t find it convincing.
>
> Well, I don't understand it. I can't make head nor tail of it. Which is
> why I'm asking these questions. I originally thought that the argument
> was that, literally, molecules had experiences, and that our own
> experiences were somehow the same thing (the 'glutamate = seeing red'
> idea (although exactly which shade of red was never mentioned)).
> Obviously that's nonsense, but that's the only interpretation I've been
> able to come up with. And as my disproof of the idea was not accepted, I
> must have had the wrong idea.
>
> So if lots of people here do understand this theory, surely someone can
> communicate it to me in words of no more than 3 syllables? Preferably 2.
>
> As if explaining it to an 8-year old, who happens to know a lot of
> biology, but has never read a philosophy book, please.
>
> I didn't understand what Darren meant (or who he's responding to) by
> "Qualia certainly correlate to physical reality, but declaring causation
> there seems like a bit of a stretch - at least a begging of the question
> of materialism.
>
> it's a very odd sort of causation where the physical properties of the
> presumptive proximate cause have nothing to do with the characteristics
> of the caused phenomena."
>
> Does the mental image of a unicorn 'correlate to physical reality'? I
> don't think so. Or is that not a quale? On the other hand, physical
> reality doesn't cause qualia? Well not by itself, but when oscillating
> pressure waves enter my ears, I normally hear a noise. I'm pretty sure
> that's not just a correlation.
>
> And the last paragraph, does that mean that it's very odd that if you
> poke someone with a stick, they'll probably shout at you? Because I
> don't think that's odd at all. Similarly, what our eyes see is a
> collection of edges and light intensities, but what we perceive is a dog
> leap-frogging a sheep. It might be an odd event, but it's not odd at all
> that we turn the one bunch of things into something completely different.
>
> Ben
>
>
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