[ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide

[BillK]

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 05:48, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Thank you for that clarification. It can only be expected from a book
> published in 2004 that some of the stories told would be contradicted
> at this point. His books are extremely broad, and it seems that it
> would be VERY difficult to touch such broad subject matter without
> making some mistakes. To clarify further, were the stories of
> infanticide on Tikipia supported by Raymond Firth?
>
> We may have a Claude hallucination one way or another, because Claude
> just told me, "To my knowledge, Raymond Firth did not directly comment
> on or disagree with Jared Diamond's synopsis of Tikopia, as Firth
> passed away in 2002, before the publication of Diamond's book.
> However, Diamond's account of Tikopia drew heavily from Firth's
> detailed ethnographic work." Unless Diamond said something before
> Firth died aside from what he published, I don't see how it's likely
> Firth would have said anything about a book published after his
> death...
>
> I have included a full conversation I had with Claude at the end of
> this email if you're interested in Claude's take.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>



I think that word construction must be a Claude hallucination, though the
point made is still correct.
I asked the new llama-3-70b-instruct AI for a second opinion.
I also asked llama-3 about infanticide.
llama-3 quotes book and page number references, so it may be more reliable.
In both cases, it seems to be that these events did happen sometimes on
Tikopia, but it wasn't an official social policy.
Human society is usually a mess of confused ideas and actions!

BillK


llama-3-70b-instruct -

In Firth's book "We, the Tikopia" (1936), he discusses the concept of
"sea-refusal" (Tikopian: "taviti"), which refers to a situation where a
group of people, often young men, would deliberately set sail in a canoe
without intending to return, effectively abandoning their island community.
Firth notes that this practice was not uncommon in Tikopian history,
particularly during times of famine, war, or social unrest.

However, Firth is careful to distinguish "sea-refusal" from suicide. He
writes:

"'Sea-refusal' is not a form of suicide, but rather a means of escaping
from the difficulties of life on the island... The motive is not to die,
but to get away from the troubles of the island, and to seek a new life
elsewhere." (Firth, 1936, p. 292)

Firth emphasizes that the Tikopians did not condone or encourage suicide,
and that "sea-refusal" was seen as a way to avoid conflict, famine, or
other crises, rather than a means of population control.

In a later work, "History and Traditions of Tikopia" (1961), Firth
reiterates this point, stating that "there is no evidence to suggest that
the Tikopians ever practiced a form of population control through suicide
or deliberate exposure to danger" (Firth, 1961, p. 134).

So, to answer your question, yes, Firth did contradict the claim made by
Jared Diamond about organized suicide voyages in Tikopia as a method of
population control. Firth's work provides a more nuanced understanding of
Tikopian culture and history, highlighting the complexity of their social
dynamics and the importance of contextualizing their practices within their
unique cultural framework.

----------------------------------

Yes, Raymond Firth did mention infanticide as a practice that existed on
Tikopia, although he did not portray it as a deliberate method of
population control.

In "We, the Tikopia" (1936), Firth discusses the Tikopian practice of
infanticide, which he refers to as "child-murder" or "infant-killing". He
notes that this practice was not uncommon in Tikopian society, particularly
in cases where the child was born with physical defects, was the result of
an adulterous relationship, or was born to a woman who was not married.

Firth writes:

"Infant-killing is a practice which has been known in Tikopia, though it is
not common. It is usually performed by the mother, and is most often done
in cases where the child is deformed or is the result of an illicit union."
(Firth, 1936, p. 246)

However, Firth does not suggest that infanticide was a deliberate method of
population control on Tikopia. Instead, he frames it as a social response
to specific circumstances, such as illegitimacy or physical defects, rather
than a means of regulating population growth.

In fact, Firth notes that the Tikopians placed a high value on children and
that childbearing was seen as an important aspect of women's roles in
society. He writes:

"Children are highly valued in Tikopia, and a woman who has no children is
pitied and sometimes despised." (Firth, 1936, p. 245)

Firth's account of infanticide on Tikopia is nuanced and contextualized
within the broader social and cultural framework of the island. While he
does not deny the existence of infanticide, he does not portray it as a
deliberate method of population control, but rather as a complex and
multifaceted practice that was shaped by various social and cultural
factors.

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