[ExI] Open Individualism

Thu Jan 4 19:15:45 UTC 2024

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 1:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> open individualism - did this idea start from any facts?
>

Yes, there are strong probabilistic arguments for it being true. See this
paper for an introduction to the probability argument:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233329805_One_Self_The_Logic_of_Experience

If open individualism is not true, the chance of you being born and alive
as you is 1 in 200,000,000, and the same odds must have been win by your
parents, your grand parents, and so on. So it is overwhelmingly unlikely
that you would not exist at all if open individualism is false.

I seriously doubt it.  It sounds like one of those ideas that blow your
> mind and so are attractive to people, but have no way of being tested.  Am
> I right?  Prove to me that it's not just another goofy idea.  Are we
> scientists in this group, or not.  If not, then forget I wrote this.   bill
> w
>

There are massive conceptual problems with the conventional closed
individualism view. If you investigate these you will see why open
individualism is the least flawed of all the available options.

Consider that the rational scientist would conclude a person survives a
star trek style destructive teletransporter, so long as an identical
version was created on the other side. So then material/bodily continuity
cannot be essential to survival.

Consider also, that a person changes substantially over time, gaining
memories here, losing memories there, to the point that a 50 year old
person has almost nothing in common psychologically with their 3 year old
self.

No combine them: consider a flawed transporter where a few memories are
lost and a few new ones inserted during a teleportation, such that an
imperfect clone was created. Did the person survive?

Your first instinct might be to say no, they were destroyed. But then
consider, a person who travels and arrives by train is not an identical
copy of the person who stepped on board.

If we can survive transport by train, why can't we survive transport by
faulty teleporter?

If we can survive faulty teleporters, then the person who stepped in is the
same person who emerges on the other side. How far can we take the
faultiness of this transporter until it's non longer the same person?

You will find, if you pull on these threads, that the conventional view of
personal identity (what Kolak calls "closed individualism") breaks down,
leaving two options:

Empty individualism: a.k.a. no-self theory, we are each only and ever a
single thought moment, like the Buddhist conception of Anatta.

Open individualism: there are no individuating borders.

Empty individualism, while logically tenable, is useless as a decision
theory, and leads only to nihilism. If, however, you in any way connect
your past self with your current self (reject empty individualism), then
the only consistent scientific theory that remains is open individualism.
Closed individualism is no workable. This is what Kolak shows in his book
"I am You".

Jason

>
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 11:26 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 12:10 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> So it's like a "people's republic" where the combination of words
>>> actually reverses the meaning of both. Open Individualism" is a philosophy
>>> that is the inverse of the Enlightenment's ideal of individualism; in fact,
>>> it's quite fine to sacrifice millions of so-called "open individuals" if
>>> they are but clonal cells sacrificed by the One Body for the Greater Good.
>>>
>>
>> I am not sure how you get from "all experiences belong to one universal
>> person" to justifying the sacrifice of millions. Can you explain what steps
>> you took to get there?
>>
>>
>>
>>> This is also, in my opinion, not much supported by the evidence of
>>> evolution. Consciousness is an evolved trait of individuals to compete for
>>> mates and resources with other individuals; cooperation between conscious
>>> individuals has to benefit each participant independently. This is very
>>> different than the "we all share one mind" philosophy.
>>
>>
>> The belief is the antithesis of evolved behavior and beliefs, which
>> prioritize the survival of the self and one's genes above all. I think the
>> brain manufactures an ego-centric illusion, which can be suspended through
>> meditation, logic, traumatic brain injury, stroke, or drugs, which results
>> in "ego death". Belief in this philosophy may be less than ideal for
>> prioritizing one's genes over others, but that has no bearing on whether or
>> not it is true.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It's not that we can connect with others for the greater good... but
>>> this is not "natural" or innate, we have to work hard for it.
>>>
>>> Still, the AI summary is quite helpful, Bilik. (I wasn't sure if you
>>> wanted to start a conversation about AI's grasp of philosophy or about the
>>> philosophy itself.)
>>>
>>> Tara Maya
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Jan 4, 2024, at 8:28 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Let's see what an AI thinks about Open Individualism.
>>> > It reminds me of bits of Buddhism that I've heard about.
>>> > BillK
>>> >
>>> > Explain Open Individualism -
>>> >
>>> > Open individualism is a philosophical position that challenges the
>>> > traditional notion of personal identity as being tied to a specific
>>> > individual. According to open individualism, there is only one
>>> > conscious subject or entity that experiences all individual lives or
>>> > perspectives.
>>> >
>>> > In other words, open individualism posits that all individuals are
>>> > fundamentally connected at the level of consciousness. From this
>>> > perspective, you and I are not separate individuals with distinct
>>> > identities but rather manifestations of the same underlying
>>> > consciousness or awareness.
>>> >
>>> > Open individualism can be contrasted with other theories of personal
>>> > identity. For example, closed individualism holds that each person is
>>> > a distinct and separate individual with a unique identity that
>>> > persists over time. It suggests that personal identity is tied to
>>> > specific bodies, minds, or streams of consciousness.
>>> >
>>> > Open individualism rejects the idea of personal identity as a separate
>>> > and isolated entity and instead argues for a more inclusive and
>>> > interconnected view of consciousness. Advocates of open individualism
>>> > often argue that the boundaries between individuals are illusory and
>>> > that the underlying reality is a single, unified consciousness
>>> > experiencing itself through different perspectives.
>>> >
>>> > This perspective raises interesting philosophical questions about the
>>> > nature of personal identity, the relationship between individuals, and
>>> > the implications for ethics and moral responsibility. It challenges
>>> > our intuitive notions of selfhood and invites us to reconsider the
>>> > boundaries we typically draw between ourselves and others.
>>> > --------------
>>> >
>>> > Tell me more --
>>> >
>>> > Certainly! Here are some additional points to delve deeper into the
>>> > concept of open individualism:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Unity of Consciousness: Open individualism posits that there is a
>>> > fundamental unity of consciousness that underlies all individual
>>> > experiences. It suggests that the sense of self and personal identity
>>> > we associate with our individual lives is an illusion, and that at a
>>> > deeper level, there is a single consciousness that is shared by all
>>> > beings.
>>> >
>>> > 2. Metaphysical Implications: Open individualism raises metaphysical
>>> > questions about the nature of consciousness and its relationship to
>>> > the physical world. It challenges the idea that consciousness arises
>>> > solely from individual brains or minds and suggests that consciousness
>>> > is a fundamental and universal aspect of reality.
>>> >
>>> > 3. Unity in Diversity: Open individualism views the diversity of human
>>> > experiences and perspectives as different expressions of the same
>>> > underlying consciousness. It emphasizes the interconnectedness and
>>> > interdependence of all individuals, suggesting that our apparent
>>> > differences are superficial and that we are ultimately part of a
>>> > larger, unified whole.
>>> >
>>> > 4. Ethical Considerations: The concept of open individualism can have
>>> > implications for ethics and moral responsibility. It challenges the
>>> > idea of personal identity as the basis for moral distinctions and
>>> > calls for a more inclusive and compassionate approach to others. If we
>>> > recognize that we are all manifestations of the same consciousness, it
>>> > can foster a sense of empathy and interconnectedness that transcends
>>> > narrow self-interest.
>>> >
>>> > 5. Mystical and Spiritual Traditions: The idea of open individualism
>>> > shares similarities with certain mystical and spiritual traditions.
>>> > Concepts such as nondualism, oneness, and universal consciousness can
>>> > be found in various philosophical and religious systems. Open
>>> > individualism aligns with the notion that our individual identities
>>> > are temporary and illusory, and that a deeper reality connects all
>>> > beings.
>>> >
>>> > It's important to note that open individualism is a philosophical
>>> > position that is subject to debate and interpretation. While some find
>>> > it intellectually compelling, others may have reservations or
>>> > objections. Exploring this concept further can lead to fascinating
>>> > discussions about the nature of consciousness, personal identity, and
>>> > our place in the world.
>>> > ------------------
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>>>
>>>
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