[ExI] after upload, what?

Wed Mar 27 00:55:11 UTC 2024

Hi Keith,

Oh, yes, now I recall that in your great story.  The problem I have with
it, is you are failing to distinguish between reality and knowledge of
reality.  Sure, you could have a 100% abstract simulated world feeding data
into the brain through simulated senses.  But there also needs to be a
buble world, inside the head, that is the brain's knowledge of that
simulated world.  Any subjective knowledge composed of colored qualities
must be something more than an abstract word like 'red'.

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 6:31 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:24 AM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My primary target is religious irrational nut cases that believe there is
>> some "spirit world" independent of the brain.  (i.e. most Mormons)
>>
> I'm presenting a talk at the upcoming Mormon Transhumanist conference
>> <https://mtaconf.org/> and I'm going all in with this "spirit world"
>> terminology. Joseph Smith said many times (and it is in Mormon Scripture)
>> "All spirit is matter which can only be discerned by purer eyes."
>>
>
> In the story, "spirit world" is a simulation of the real world.  People
> can more between the real world and the simulation whenever they wish.
>
> This is totally unlike the Mormon ideas.  As far as I know, nobody has
> ever come back from their "spirit world."
>

Yes, the "spirit world" most mormons believe in today, and the ghosts which
most mormons irrationally believe leave the body upon death to head to this
neither world of the dead is what I'm trying to attack and destroy, by
showing how irrational, faithless and evil it is.  I'm trying to point out
that there is a much more modern, scientifically consistent, rational and
hopeful way to interpret statements like "All Spirit is Matter'.'

I'm trying to point out that we can believe in engineerable knowledge of
(again important to distinguish between reality and knowledge of reality)
*spirits*, which live within bubble spirit worlds, all dependent on living
and computing brains computing directly on spiritual qualities like redness
and greenness.  But we don't need to believe in *ghosts*. which are neither
engineerable nor enhanceable, and most importantly, falsifiable (i.e. once
we discover what spiritual qualities are, this will falsify for all the
believers in substance dualism
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/48-Substance-Dualism>,
and force them into a more physical scientific consensus camp.)

> Keith
>
> If we can get the irrational idiots who believe in whoga booka BS, to use
>> words like "spirit world" for something real and objectively observable,
>> maybe this will convert them to be more rational, and hopeful for what
>> uploading will really be like?  And hopefully it will increase their
>> likeliness to be more motivated to do things like be cryonically
>> preserved....
>>
>> Oh, my talk's title:
>>
>> "All spirit is matter"
>> What will spiritual engineering and uploading be like?
>>
>>  TWIYH_1080P.mp4
>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uvOyzqIKWLb2Wl2JtrWUzOQ2i7p0XKE1/view?usp=drive_web>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:38 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 10:09 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a
>>>> critical part of what consciousness is.
>>>> There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The "spirit world" in _The Clinic Ssed_ was a euphemism for the
>>> simulated world uploaded minds found themselves in.
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this
>>>> spirit world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot.
>>>> "Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by
>>>> neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to
>>>> experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as
>>>> 'sprites'.  But they can't yet get color.  And until they know what is
>>>> responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the
>>>> colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual
>>>> cortex, no simulation of it will work.
>>>>
>>>> My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of
>>>> stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that.  And
>>>> once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective
>>>> visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing
>>>> the visual cortex and its qualities.  I predict this kind of computation
>>>> directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change
>>>> humanity forever.  I predict that people will look back on completely
>>>> quality blind thinking like this as ideotic.  Everyone will be wondering
>>>> how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  TWIYH_1080P.mp4
>>>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U4mq0Tpi1dGugf-ZJB8YLH4k8Vaa3r5D/view?usp=drive_web>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57 PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgive me for delurking,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No forgiveness needed.  Welcome to the chat!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how*
>>>>>> to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with
>>>>>> existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to
>>>>>> generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being
>>>>>> distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth.
>>>>>> As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely
>>>>>> lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of
>>>>>> the value of lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck
>>>>> of impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like
>>>>> this might be being done with insect brains.
>>>>>
>>>>> Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one.  Make a good enough
>>>>> (which likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the
>>>>> neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs).  Connect these
>>>>> neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual
>>>>> neurons are connected.  Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer -
>>>>> which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the
>>>>> expense.  There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate
>>>>> growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the
>>>>> running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if
>>>>> the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to
>>>>> support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if
>>>>> the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original).
>>>>>
>>>>> This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can
>>>>> help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are).
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
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>>>
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