[ExI] Machines of Loving Grace

[Adrian Tymes]

On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 11:33 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 2:33 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 3:56 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:10 AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> > Yes, I think that forking, and clones + merges are interesting
> concepts
> >> > which could perhaps be thought of as "children" in a way, in that
> remote
> >> > future.
> >>
> >> I don't think copies will be permitted in the future.  Think we have a
> >> population problem now?  Doubles in 15 years.  Imagine doubling in 15
> >> minutes.
> >
> > Who's going to stop me?
>
> The copy machines.
>

Licensing restrictions might suffice to stop the general public, but that
approach doesn't cut it for the people who are able to create their own
copy machines - who may be statistically more likely than the general
public to want to copy themselves.


> > The cops?  By the time they found out, there'd be too many of me to
> arrest - and any they don't catch, can just keep duplicating.
>
> Is this a good idea?  Or should there be general agreement that it is
> a bad idea?


To mangle a certain quote: "Good, bad, I'm the one with the copy machine."

You saying that it is bad will do nothing to stop someone who has built
their own copy machine from copying themselves.  That is why I inquired
about law enforcement, which is the usual method of enforcing ethics on
those who refuse to behave in a manner that most people believe is ethical.

Robin Hanson and I argued over this point years ago.  His
> thought was that uploads would be copied till the value of whatever
> they could do fell to zero.
>
> I don't know how much economics will be a factor in the future, but if
> it is, doubling reduces your resources by half.  Who gets the bank
> account and the wife?
>

If I was the one with the copy machine, I might want to make sure that most
of my copies had a copy of my wife.  She's a competent and trusted partner;
she and I together are more capable than I alone.  (Modulo my wife agreeing
to it, of course, but we're talking mostly hypotheticals.)

Bank account, though...well, first that depends on which copies survive
free, if we are talking about a situation where society would frown on and
try to arrest or erase any mass copying.  After that, it gets to the
purpose of having a copy.

Just copying for the sake of copying is, as many fictional depictions have
noted, usually a bad idea.  "I want a copy of me" by itself is basically
never the actual, complete motive.  Some other approach than literal exact
unlimited copying would produce a better result, but to get there it helps
to better understand the motive.  Among the common versions:
* "...to do menial task X."  A copy of you is an inferior solution to a
labor droid.
* "...to be my slave and do a bunch of menial tasks."  Again, a copy of you
is an inferior solution to a labor droid.
* "...to do short-duration task Y that requires specialist
knowledge/capability that only I have."  A limited-lifespan version of you,
that never has access to your resources save those needed to do that task
and painlessly ceases existence once the task is done might be a superior
solution.  This is kind of a straight copy, except that you are willing to
be either the one that goes on to live or the one that dedicates yourself
just to that task.
* "...to do an indefinite series of short-duration tasks that require
specialist knowledge/capability that only I have."  As above, but make a
new copy for each task or small set of tasks.  If it becomes a large set of
tasks, to the point that repeatedly copying yourself for this purpose would
be a burden, then a better solution would be to automate those tasks so
that you are not required to actually perform them.  If you're worried
about job security, keep that automation under your strict control, but
requiring a large amount of your time (copy or otherwise) to be spent over
and over again is not the optimum solution.
* "...so I can retire."  This often reduces to the above case.  Does the
work that you are doing, still need to be done (whether as a source of
income for you, or for any other reason), to a degree that would be a
burden for you to keep doing it?  If so, find some other way for it to get
done while still fulfilling your needs.  If the work does not need to be
done, then find a way to stop doing it, which generally does not require a
copy of you (in this sense, or in more traditional ones such as training
someone else to replace you).
* "...to be my child."  For what end?  Having a child is never an end in
and of itself, despite great efforts of many to portray it that way.  For
many of the reasons why you would want a child, an altered version of you -
who is clearly not you, and thus does not get your bank account (though you
may give them a small fraction, from which they can grow their own
resources) - is a better solution than a full, unaltered copy.


> If you can make a case for flooding with copies, I would like to read it.
>

The best one off the top of my head is a survival situation: some external
force (like law enforcement) is going to attempt to terminate or severely
reduce my life, but I have enough forewarning to make a flood of copies.
The likelihood that at least one will escape is much greater if there is
far more than just one of me.

This is a short-term solution, that usually involves me committing to
terminate or obey if I wind up as an instance that did not live free so
long as at least one other instance does live free, which I could perhaps
do in the short term but not forever.  It also requires an ability for, if
multiple instances of me do wind up living free, those instances to come
together to wind up with only one instance in the end.  Some sort of
merging (unforking) would be ideal, especially if there was a prospect of
some instances being forced to exist in subpar conditions (such as prison)
for long durations before the merged free instance had a chance to merge
them or otherwise deal with them.
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