[ExI] The Big Black Hole Question

[scerir]

As Greenberger (and others) say "There is an argument due to Pauli that says that the energy and lab time
cannot be treated as operators, because the time, like the momentum, is unbounded. The momentum acts like a displacement operator for position, and this shows that the position must be unbounded. The same argument would show that the energy would be unbounded. But in our case, the situation is more complicated, because the proper time is not really unbounded, but has an upperlimit given by the lab time.
So there are many real, unresolved issues concerning time, the perception of time, and the meaning of proper time, that arise in quantum theory. Connected to this, there are many problems connected with the concept of mass. It would certainly be a worthwhile project to sort them out, or at least make progress in that
direction."

If I remember well there are many different interpretations of the time-energy uncertainty delta E x delta t > h.

What is t? Time of the clock in some laboratory? Textbook quantum mechanics treats time as a classical parameter, and not as a quantum observable with an associated Hermitian operator. For this reason, to make sense of usual time-energy uncertainty relation, the term delta t must be interpreted as a time interval, and not as a time measurement uncertainty due to quantum noise. Aharonov (and others) wrote many interesting papers about that.

https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0105049

In proper time - mass uncertainty relation, mass and proper time are physical quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty
delta tau expresses the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading an imaginary clock situated on the particle. The delta t term  of the time-energy uncertainty relation is the time interval measured in a particular coordinate system. It is not only a matter of reference frames, the usual (time-energy) uncertainty relation originates generally from the kinetic or potential energy of the body, rather than its rest energy. Whereas the mass-proper time uncertainty relation can arise from gravitational potential.

Look, the time-energy relation is very interesting, The incredible Franson interferometer for entangled photons is based on that relation. Have a look.

> Il 10/07/2025 19:16 CEST Jas. Have a look.on Resch via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> ha scritto:
>  
>  
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 1:01 PM scerir via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Regarding the astronomy use of the term, it is fun to think about.  Under
> > > sufficient pressure, gravity overpowers everything and electrons are pushed
> > > into the protons, which form neutrons, kerBOOM, supernova, result, huge ball
> > > of neutrons.  COOL!  But... what if that neutron star is so big, it crushes
> > > the neutrons?  What do neutrons crush into?  We don't know.  Our equations
> > > fail us.  It's all a big virtual reality, I tells ye.  Wicked, evil it is.
> > > The devil invented the whole system.  Rage against it.
> > >
> > > spike
> > 
> > Quark stars are possible.
> > 
> > But I remember that Daniel Greenberger wrote about an interesting uncertainty principle: delta m x delta tau > h, where m is mass and tau is proper time. In his theory, proper time and mass are physical quantities measured in a particular system of reference: the particle rest frame. Therefore, the proper time uncertainty delta tau expresses the standard deviation of measures from external frames of the reading an imaginary clock situated on the particle.
> > 
> > Interesting the deep connection between mass and (proper) time.
> > 
> > https://link.springer.com/book/9789819507313?srsltid=AfmBOoq6GQOG9_GyIN_djz2xudlwkszhypfd0xyyyOL3LCFV7LiaNcYj
> > 
>  
> Interesting. I wonder to what extent this mirrors, or relates the better known time-energy uncertainty relation:
>  
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle#Energy%E2%80%93time
>  
> https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/uncertainty.html
>  
> The time-energy uncertainty relation is the most relevant bound for the fastest physically possible computers. Clock speed is bounded by the frequency of the system, which depends on mass/energy.
>  
> Jason 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20250710/36ee0b0b/attachment.htm>