[ExI] Are Dyson swarms a good idea?

[Jason Resch]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2026, 7:32 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 27, 2026 at 11:54 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> *>> I believe that even for a superintelligence there would be no
>>>>> disputing matters of taste. And you are the one that claims to know how
>>>>> post Singularity Jupiter Brains would behave, you claim they would all
>>>>> behave just like you would, every single one of them. B**ut I do not
>>>>> claim to know that they would all behave in one certain way, and I
>>>>> certainly don't claim **they would all behave just as I would, but if
>>>>> just one of them did then the galaxy would look engineered. But it doesn't.
>>>>> Without tying myself into logical knots I can only think of one explanation
>>>>> for that *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *> I made no claims they would agree with me or agree with you. I only
>>>> suggest there are reasons we can expect them to converge on whatever the
>>>> right answer is, and hence, all agree with one another.*
>>>
>>>
>>> *There is no "right answer" to the question "Do you want to build a
>>> Dyson sphere?", there are only opinions, and as I said there is no
>>> disputing matters of taste.  *
>>>
>>
>> *> if Dyson swarms were art pieces I would be inclined to agree that the
>> choice to build one is a matter of taste, but Dyson swarms are generally
>> assumed to serve some utilitarian purpose *
>>
>
>
> *U**tilitarian? Something is utilitarian if it helps you get what you
> want, but what you want is a matter of taste, and there's no disputing
> matters of taste.  *
>


You said what they want is to perform massive amounts of computations, and
what they need is massive energy to do so. Dyson swarms and energy are a
means to an end, with the end being computation. If there is a better means
that gets to the same end, it is irrational to prefer and pursue that less
useful means, unless you think the aesthetic appeal (or something else)
makes Dyson swarms an end in and of themselves. But this is just grasping
at straws to defend Dyson swarms in the face of better methods having
already been demonstrated.


> *P**urpose? Intelligent beings are in the purpose conferring business,
> not dead matter. The planet Jupiter can't give you purpose, but you can
> give the planet Jupiter a purpose, for example it might come in handy if
> you wish to make a Dyson sphere/swarm. *
>
> *> As I've already shown, you can get a higher return on computations
>> using a black hole heatsink.*
>>
>
> *And as I've already shown, the higher return is RIDICULOUSLY tiny.  *
>

If one computer is 99% efficient and consumes 1 joule to perform 10
computations, then we increase this computer's efficiency to 99.999999%
then we can expect it to now be able to perform 10,000,000 computations for
that same 1 joule of energy consumed.

Do you agree, or have I made some math error that you care to correct?

Do you agree Landauer's limit depends on the temperature of the heatsink?



> *> You wouldn't consider the choice between hunting whales for lamp oil
>> vs. building a thorium reactor a matter of taste, would you?*
>>
>
> *I certainly would! Science can tell you how to get what you want but it
> can't tell you what you should want. For me building a thorium reactor
> would be more fun than killing a whale, but others may feel differently. *
>
> *Fun fact, there is actually a connection between whales and thorium. In
> the late 19th century something called a "thorium mantle" was invented, it
> was a mesh bag made of thorium nitrate that made a brilliant white light
> when heated to  incandescence by a flame in a lamp that used whale oil. It
> made the lamps far more efficient, less oil was needed to be burned to
> produce the same amount of light and so fewer whales needed to be killed.
> At the time it was just about the only use that anybody had ever found for
> thorium.  *
>


Very interesting thanks for sharing, I did not know that.


*>>> We see the aliens from the movie independence day as evil for trying
>>>> to wipe out life on Earth. *
>>>
>>>
>>> *>> A real stinker of a movie, I wish you'd picked a better example.  *
>>>
>>
>> *> What example would you have used?*
>>
>
> * Colossus: The Forbin Project
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoB1l3A-GF0>  it's an old movie, it was
> made in 1970, but in my opinion it is the most underrated movie of all
> time. You can watch it on YouTube. *
>


I've seen it, but it doesn't involve aliens so I considered it a less apt
for my analogy.


> *The movie Ex Machina from 2014 is also excellent,*
>

Another great movie.

* and so is the series Pantheon which is on Netflix. Devs is one of my
> favorite science-fiction series, although it's not primarily about AI.*
>

I loved pantheon. Devs was entertaining but unrealistic physically.

Jason
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