[ExI] Subjective/Objective

[Brent Allsop]

Hi Jason,

This is an interesting study, and I can see how it could be taken as
evidence for functionalism.  But consider the following.

First off, what happens in the retina is causally far upstream from the
rendered subjective experience, so almost anything could explain this.  Is
it possible they just perceive red as a brand-new, highly distinct shade of
or mixture of color qualities they already knew, like yellow or blue?

They used 2 male squirrel monkeys in this experiment, specifically because
female squirrel monkeys are not red/green colorblind. This suggests to me
that the males very likely still have the ability to render redness into
their subjective experience.  The proper stimulation from the retina is
likely the only missing element (the only thing needing to be fixed) in the
2 males tested.

Tetrachromat humans are mostly female, suggesting that we trichromat males
may also have the ability to render this 4th primary color quality into our
subjective experience. Therefore, modifying our retinas similarly or
stimulating the primary visual cortex with a visual cortical prosthesis
might easily enable us to become tetrachromats.  I'm looking forward to
saying, "Oh, THAT is what that 4th color is like."

I guess it is possible this is all purely 'functional', but either way,
whatever is responsible for this 4th quality would surely be objectively
observable and distinguishable from the other qualities, right?  And IF
there is some 'function' from which redness 'arises,' that would still be
a, what John refers to as a "brute physical fact," right?




On Mon, Jul 13, 2026 at 3:08 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2026, 4:40 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Adrean,
>> Thanks for jumping in.
>> I hope you're not asserting that beliefs about qualia are unfalsifiable?
>> Did you see my response to Ben about an hour before you sent this, where
>> I discussed fixing issues for people who suffer from achromatopsia?
>> People are working on cortical visual prosthetics and are getting close
>> to figuring out how to stimulate the cortex in a way that results in the
>> experience of color qualities.
>> Once they know what is responsible for color qualities, and what to
>> stimulate in the cortex to produce them, all this will be objectively
>> understood, including the method by which those qualities are rendered into
>> our conscious knowledge or experience.
>> And if it is demonstrated to be something more than just 'messages,' it
>> would falsify the belief that it is all messages or 'signals'.
>>
>
>
> Brent,
>
> Wasn't this addressed by the experiment in 2009 where colorblind monkeys
> had their retinas infected with a virus that coded for a new photopigment,
> and then in a few weeks their brains adjusted to process the new signals in
> a way that allowed them to discirminate colors they weren't previously able
> to discriminate?
>
> This result suggests to me that it's not any new molecules introduced into
> the brain that gave these monkeys a new color property, but rather, new
> signals/data coming into the visual cortex which were not previously there.
> After the visual cortex rewired itself to be able to distinguish and
> appropriately process this new signal (a signal that was uncorrelated with
> either of the other two color signals from the retina) the monkeys would
> then see this new color, which is completely unlike seeing any mixture of
> the other two colors.
>
> Jason
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2026 at 12:43 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2026 at 1:39 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2026 at 4:57 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >> On 13/07/2026 02:23, Brent Allsop wrote:
>>> >> > When we are aware of many qualities at one time as one unified
>>> gestalt experience, something more is happening — effing of the ineffable.
>>> >>
>>> >> Nope, nothing more is happening. When we become aware of something,
>>> when many signals are happening at the same time and influencing each
>>> other, that is what is happening - we become aware of it. I don't know what
>>> else could be happening. Isn't it remarkable enough?
>>> >
>>> > That is a falsifiable claim.
>>>
>>> Is it now?  Do you have a way to measure awareness other than by
>>> measuring these signals (which would seem to include all relevant
>>> aspects of the brain's physical status)?
>>>
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