[ExI] teachers

[Jason Resch]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 1:25 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 9:53 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 12:14 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 8:26 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I also disagree with the assessment that MW is not falsifiable. If we
>>>> run a conscious mind on a quantum computer, and the quantum computation
>>>> fails due to the consciousness of the mind on the computer causing
>>>> collapse, and it eliminates the interference pattern, then MW is falsified.
>>>>
>>>> Here is David Deutsch's description of the experiment:
>>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4rrNMdbmSsHGsLkh9
>>>>
>>>
>>> How is MW falsified in this case?  There can exist events which are the
>>> same in all worlds that had the same starting condition,  and we would
>>> never  know.
>>> ______________________________
>>
>>
>> It's only falsified if the interference pattern isn't restored after
>> quantum erasing the conscious observer's mind.
>>
>> Collapse theories say collapse happens by the time or during conscious
>> observation, and that it is irreversible and destroys the interference
>> pattern.
>>
>> MW on the other hand does not say (apparent) collapse is irreversible,
>> but that everything is linear, continuous and time reversible.
>>
>
> What about MW says things are time reversible?
>

Everything in physics is time reversible (more accurately is CPT symmetric
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPT_symmetry ), with the sole except being
objective wave function collapse as found in CI.

Take out wave function collapse, and everything in physics becomes
deterministic, reversible, causal, linear, local, and speed-of-light
obeying again.

If things are time reversible, then worlds could be reversed back past the
> point where they branched off, which would seem to counter the basis of MW:
> separate worlds don't exist as separate worlds until after they branch.
>

Worlds can fuse. This is what happens in a quantum eraser experiment:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment

Fusing worlds that have macroscopically decohered (
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence ), however, is a
technical impossibility. IR photons escape and trigger other IR photons and
so on, and they race away in all directions at the speed of light. It would
be quite unlikely to have all the right mirrors in all the right places to
bring them all back to the barn from which they escaped, but this is what's
necessary to fuse the world after decoherence.


> But, setting that aside for the moment...
>
>
>> It's just hard for normal macroscopic systems to be reversed, hence why
>> it is done on a quantum computer which can be completely controlled and
>> leaks no information to the environment.
>>
>> So if we can fully reverse the system after a conscious observation is
>> made, and erase the which-way information concerning the measurement, then
>> the interference pattern should be recovered, confirming MW and ruling out
>> collapse as any kind of objectively real phenomenon.
>>
>
> Demonstrating that collapse can be reversed would rule out irreversible
> collapse, but reversible-collapse MW is not the only theory of reversible
> collapse.
>

Collapse is by definition irreversible.

Collapse by definition occurs at least by the time a conscious observation
of a measurement is made.

Therefore, if the system can be returned to its no original state of being
in a superposition after a conscious observation of a measurement of that
state is made, then there couldn't have been a collapse of the wave
function, because collapse is by definition irreversible, and it would be
impossible to recover the superposition and it's associated interference
pattern (collapse destroys both).



> Also, how does one "quantum erase" a quantum computer while retaining
> its measurements (and thus confirming that collapse has happened,
>

In the experiment the conscious observer in the quantum computer stores a
record that it made a definite observation, e.g., that the election was
seen to be either spin-up or spin-down, but it does not record which of the
two it was, and it's memory of which one it was is what is reversed and
erased.

We are then, as external observers to this experiment, left with two
mutually incompatible things, if CI is true and collapse occurred:

1. A printed record written by the observer attesting to the fact that it
made a measurement and saw a definite result

2. An electron that remains in a superposition, despite having been
measured and they measurement having been consciously observed. (or if we
repeat this many times, with a two slit scenario, we are left with an
interference pattern on a photographic plate).

The only explanation for this is that collapse did not happen, and that the
mind running on the quantum computer, when it observed the measured value,
itself entered a superposition of ((seeing the electron as spin-up) +
(seeing the electron as spin-down)).

That the superposition survives through and during conscious observation,
is the only way we know how to explain the final experimental result, where
the  electron remains in it's original superposed state.


without which one can't be sure if a subsequent lack of collapse is in fact
> a reversal)?  If a collapse is subsequently observed, can't one simply
> claim the erasure hasn't happened?
>

I am not sure I understand what you are asking, but if the reversal process
fails, and we can't get the electron back into a superposition, it would be
evidence of the reality of collapse, and MW would be refuted.

Jason
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