[ExI] Mental Phenomena
Ben Zaiboc
ben at zaiboc.net
Mon Feb 3 16:49:20 UTC 2020
On 03/02/2020 14:28, Brent Allsop wrote:
>
> Hi Ben,
>
>
> “I expect it will be a description that isn't all that easy to
> decipher, as well. It will necessarily relate to a large number of
> processes, and will be different (possibly wildly different) in
> different brains, and likely restricted to a single point in time.”
>
> We are talking about completely different things.
>
No, we're not.
> You are talking about information abstracted away from different
> qualities as they change over time and between people. I’m talking
> about the quality (process) that is changing.
>
Although you are muddying things terribly, by using the word
'qualities'. I'm talking about the patterns of information in the brain
that arise when our senses send information into the brain. You just
said you're talking about the same thing, except you use the word
'quality' instead of 'process'.
> I’m asking, what is the color of this process, before it changed, and
> how did this process change?
>
What does that even mean?? A process doesn't have a colour! No more than
knowledge does.
I don't know how to say it any more simply: The sensation of
experiencing a colour is a pattern of information-processing in the
brain. That's it. It's not 'about' something else, it doesn't have a
'quality', it's not 'abstracted away' from anything, it just is.
> There is a necessary functional cost to achieve this substrate
> independence. If P1 is the process before the change, and P2 is the
> objectively observable different process after the change,
>
What change are you talking about here?
>
> you need two different dictionaries to get the same abstract
> information from the different processes before and after the change.
>
There is no need to get any abstract information. The processes /are/
the experiences of colour.
>
> Colors are just colors.Sure, a redness processes can change from
> redness to greenness,
>
Colours are indeed just colours. Now why on earth would the experience
of redness suddenly become the experience of greenness? /How/ could it?
The only reason the experience is an experience of redness is because of
the similarity it has to prior red things experienced. A redness
experience could be succeeded by a greenness one, though, and this
happens all the time. Look from the strawberry to a leaf. But no-one is
going to look at a strawberry and suddenly see a green thing (unless
they have brain damage, or are colour-blind, in which case the leaves
and the fruit are all the same colour).
> and we can have different dictionaries to get the same 'red' information.
>
No, there are no dictionaries. There is no 'red information'. There are
patterns of information, and associations with very many other patterns,
shifting all the time. The pattern that today in Bob means 'I see a red
strawberry', could well be different tomorrow, and is likely to be very
different in Bill, but they all mean the same thing. The closest thing
to a dictionary that could be said to exist is the memories of similar
things seen in the past, in a particular individual (IOW, examples).
Memories that, even if very similar in content, are probably encoded in
different patterns in different people, and changed in the same person
when they access them (I assume you're familiar with the idea that we
change our memories every time we remember them. Or at least we re-write
them, and they can easily change during this process).
> The dictionary before the change defines the redness process to be
> red, and after the change, the dictionary defines greenness to be
> red.A redness quality just is, if it changes, it is an objectively
> observable and subjectively experienceable different process, there
> are no dictionaries required.
>
The only thing that defines redness is the prior examples we have
experienced.
And there's that word again. There is no such thing as a 'redness
quality'. There are information processes that cause people to say "That
thing there is red". We can't say much more than that. One day we may be
able to, but not today.
--
Ben Zaiboc
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20200203/bc827071/attachment.htm>
More information about the extropy-chat
mailing list