[ExI] Essential Upload Data

Re Rose rocket at earthlight.com
Thu May 21 17:47:31 UTC 2020

I have a very funny cat. She is persistent. Every day, she tries to get
between me and my book while I am reading, and she tries something
different each time. She creeps up slowly. She backs onto it. She runs up
and flops down across it. She brings me her toy and drops it onto my book.
She wriggles over on her belly and puts her head in the middle of it. She
tears across the room, coming to rest on my book. She is very creative.

John, you're being my cat. You don't have to agree with me, which is
totally fine. The marketplace of ideas and all that. Discussion is very
valuable and ideally, leads to new thoughts on all sides. But I have said
the following about a grillion times - a copy thinking it is me doesn't
make it me. Of course a perfect copy (which I state, over and over, can not
be done, so this is a thought experiment only) would think it is me, as I
think I am me. But while I am thinking I am me, and Ms. Copy is thinking
she is me, she is she and I am still and only me. See?

Ms. Copy thinking she is me while I simultaneously think I am me does not
make us one being. And we will bifurcate soon after that moment, being
forevermore two separate entities with some of the same memories, but only
from before the copy-point.

And. if you die at the copy point and a copy is then made, when it comes
online, it will think it is you - but you will still be dead.

Another being thinking it is you does not magically make you come alive
again. I'm sorry.

To your second point, to wit: *And all biological systems, active or not,
are made of atoms, and the **position and momentum of those atoms are the
initial conditions*. That is true but incomplete. All biological systems
are made of atoms AND are also their behaviour as the system evolves,
becomes defined by unique hierarchical information, as I've previously
stated ad nauseum, and if that isn't clear by now there are writings you
can read out there, a few of which I've mentioned, before you continue to
say the same objection to that over and over. I know "hierarchical
information" isn't clear by itself. It's part of a large arena of knowledge
(systems, neuroscience, complexity, quantum physics, and others). If you
are interested, I think a great place to start reading about all this could
be, maybe, a neuroscience text, a physiologial psych text, Jeff Hawkins
work, nonlinear dynamics (Strogatz, definitely Strogatz), and quantum,
especially Heisenburg - because you just cannot measure position AND

   I mean, that's a start, even just a few chapters in any of those books
would be helpful to this discussion.

   To sum up, I'm stating that, IMHO:

1) A copy of you is not you.
2) Position and monentum of atoms is not enoght to make a copy AND you
can't get that information anyway. It's a physical limt proven by
Heisenburg, and I had nothing to do with it.



Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:22:00 -0400
From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data
        <CAJPayv09QPRXZuW8pV=DvCKhwHs-U0U5HU6_fp1DM_SMnrAQmw at mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:41 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> I'm persistantly me, even though some of me was in that scone I ate with
> John (lol).*

When discussing this topic personal pronouns need to be handled as
carefully as if they were made of  nitroglycerin. Ms.You is persistently
Regina because Ms.You remembers being Regina yesterday, and exactly
precisely the same thing could be said about Ms.You's copy.
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