[Paleopsych] grappling w/EP

[Alice Andrews]

Hi Nicholas,

I think I'd agree with this...though not sure it's what I was talking
about...But then again, honestly, I'm grappling, so maybe this is what I was
talking about!

Anyway, I came across this lovely quote while reading some evolutionary
epistemology the other day, and I think it's lovely:

"Evolution is a process in which information regarding the environment is
literally incorporated, incarnated, in surviving organisms through the
process of adaptation. Adaptation is for Darwininans, an increment of
knowledge." -Gerard Radnitzky

Thanks  for writing,

Alice

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicholas Bannan" <n.j.c.bannan at reading.ac.uk>
To: "The new improved paleopsych list" <paleopsych at paleopsych.org>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] grappling w/EP


> I also like the idea that behaviour is modified in each individual as well
> as the group by context and periodicity.  There are times of year and days
> of the week on which people are, as it were, more or less in touch with
> spiritual concerns.  There might also be releasing mechnisms for leanings
in
> this direction: I hesitate to say, for instance, moonlight, but I offer it
> as a basic example; fasting might be another.  One could also imagine
> 'curves' whereby a given event might have a spiritual dimension that is
then
> set to one side, only to be recovered later.  Think of what happens before
> sporting events (anthems, anticipation), in an atmosphrere rudely
> interrupted by the confrontation itself.  When conflict is completed,
> anthems and ceremonies, speeches and slo-mo replays to nostalgic music
take
> over.  Imagine racking this sequence up for real confrontations, such as
> wars.  We have a different response to the trumpet calls that recruit our
> arousal for battle, and those that accompany the burial of the dead.
>
> Nicholas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Smith" <dsmith06 at maine.rr.com>
> To: "The new improved paleopsych list" <paleopsych at paleopsych.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] grappling w/EP
>
>
> > Alice
> >
> > As I understand it (drawing on the work of Christopher Boehm) our common
> > ancestor with the chimpanzee was, in all likelihood, heavily into
> dominance
> > hierarchies.  Our stone age ancesestors, like nomadic hunter-gatherers
> > today, opposed dominance by deploying a counter-dominance strategy (the
> > whole group opposes any individual who tries to throw his weight
around).
> > With the advent of a more settled life-style, and especially
agriculture,
> we
> > reverted to ancient, despotic, chimpanzee-like ways.  So, I guess that
> this
> > would imply what we have the potential for dominance-hierarchies and
> > counterdominant anti-hierarchies.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alice Andrews" <aandrews at hvc.rr.com>
> > To: "The new improved paleopsych list" <paleopsych at paleopsych.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:05 PM
> > Subject: [Paleopsych] grappling w/EP
> >
> >
> > > Hi Paleo people,
> > >
> > > I have an EPish question which I can't seem to wrap my Floresian-sized
> > brain
> > > around...And hoping someone out there has some thoughts...
> > > In terms of evolved psychological mechanisms/innate releasing
mechanisms
> > > (IRMs) and manifest behavior or traits...etc...I would like to be able
> to
> > > argue for a universal human nature, even in the face of huge
individual
> > > differences...
> > >
> > > However, say I wanted to argue that, along with our hierarchical
nature,
> > we
> > > also have the capacity to be nonhierarchical. Now, right there it
almost
> > > sounds nonsensical to say it is our human nature to be hierarchical
but
> > that
> > > we have the capacity  not to be that way.
> > > But I do understand Cosmides, I think, and I'm willing to view it as
an
> > > epigenetic structure that can be turned up/on, or not, that there's
> great
> > > human variabilty, IRMs, etc...
> > >
> > > However, it seems to me, that we'd be better off talking about
> > > multi-phylogenetic modes [along lines of (tri) MacLean or (quad) Jim
> > Henry]
> > > or even a bi-human nature...rather than uni. Homo sap's hierarchical
> mode
> > > (Appolinian) is probably a lot newer than homo sap's
> > > spiritual/connected-to-everything-feeling/nonhierarchical mode
> > > (Dionysian)--which must represent, phylogentically, something older,
not
> > > more primitive-- even though we think of the hierarchical mode as
being
> > more
> > > primitive and the connected/spiritual as being more 'evolved'...
> > >
> > > (Or binary human nature: in terms of left brain/right brain;
> > agonic/hedonic;
> > > reason/emotion, ad infinitum.)
> > >
> > > But getting to question:
> > > I realize EP and behavior genetics are at odds sometimes...but...I've
> long
> > > known about the possibility of a belief-in-god module. From my novel,
> > Trine
> > > Erotic (2002):
> > >
> > >
> > > She suspected these romantic, fate thoughts they both had were
> "designed"
> > > for a reason. That there had to be some kind of belief-in-fate module,
a
> > > mental organ in the brain, just as there is a belief-in-God module.
Some
> > > people's are "set" very high. Others don't even have them. Perhaps
this
> > fate
> > > module was even close to the God module, some kind of Belief area,
maybe
> > > near the amygdala or hypothalamus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And now it looks like that they've found the genes controlling
spiritual
> > > 'feeling'...And my suspicion that some people have and some don't,
> appears
> > > to be true. Now, that doesn't mean that someone who doesn't have all
the
> > > genes that might make someone feel spiritual naturally, can't get to
> that
> > > place. But it would probably take concerted effort...lots and lots of
> > > meditation and will, and indoctrination, and mushrooms, etc. And then
> > still,
> > > it may not be the same thing as the natural 'Dionysian' man...not even
> > > close.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So... how would the universal human nature argument proceed? We all
have
> > > psych evolved mechs/structure to feel connected/ spiritual,
(Dionysian)
> > > etc...??????
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But...again...What about people who don't feel this way and don't have
> > these
> > > genes? Do they have this potential/structure? What does that look
like?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If nonspirituals (Appolinian types) don't have genes that seem to
carry
> > such
> > > a disposition and their brains don't appear to reflect it either...How
> can
> > > we say it is there for everyone? Especially when, despite powerful
> forces
> > > like models (parents), school, peers, society, some people have no
> > spiritual
> > > feeling or religiosity, etc etc. And the reverse is also true.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it that the 'spiritual' program isn't universal, because even the
> > > environment doesn't seem to be able to kick it in...? Or that it is a
> part
> > > of universal human nature, because if it's not there innately, it IS
> > > possible for people to feel such feelings given the right set of
> > > circumstances?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it semantic and political? If we say there's no universal human
> nature,
> > > but then make nativist claims here and there, do we get closer to
> > right-wing
> > > ideology and behavior genetics?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Uni-human Nature versus Bi-human nature
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm thinking we have two choices--but we can choose both if we want:
> > >
> > > 1.We can say here is human nature warts and all and it's taken
millions
> of
> > > years of mother nature's 'fine-tuning' to get it where it is and it's
> not
> > > likely to change in any dramatic way anytime soon, so let's, with our
> > > knowledge and understanding of who we are and where we came from, try
to
> > > change (as some EPists suggest), our environment, to make it more
> > compatible
> > > with our hunter-gatherer minds. (eg, focus on creating more cohesive
> > > communities and less fractured alienated ones, much like EEA tribes. )
> > This
> > > is the practical, pragmatic, active approach. The idea would be to try
> to
> > > create a world that by and large helps to activate certain
> > modules/programs.
> > > However, this could sound, to some, like on the path to right-wing
> > ideology
> > > or whacky Luddite utopia..But it doesn't have to be either.
> > >
> > > We needn't not be realistic nor give up freedoms and individual rights
> and
> > > choice. Freedom and individual rights trump the notion that there may
be
> > an
> > > inherent, archetypal, mother-father system, say. If we maintain as the
> > > ultimate goal, though, the pursuit and experience of happiness, then
> other
> > > ways will not only be tolerated, but embraced and supported. What the
> > > project in this case would do would be to try to support people's
innate
> > > archetypal goals and programs.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2. And/or we can take the more existential, romantic, transcendental,
> > > dualistic route and say, one of human nature's features is that it is
> > > binary. Reason and passion, Id and Superego, reptilian brain and
> > neocortex,
> > > feeling and thought, left-brain and right brain, head and heart,
> Dionysian
> > > and Appolinian, agonic and hedonic, hierarchical versus affiliative,
> > > instinct and rationality, animalness and godliness, nature and
culture,
> > > individualistic/separate-feeling vs communitarian/connected- feeling.I
> > could
> > > go on. We are every bit of one as we are the other. And we can choose
to
> > act
> > > on instinct or not. When we are hit, we can choose, through thinking
> > first,
> > > whether we wish to do what feels good (limbically and reptiliany) and
> > >  "right"--which is, generally, to hit back. Our prefrontal lobes give
us
> > the
> > > gift of not hitting back, running away, or freezing. We can reason, we
> can
> > > ask why, we can negotiate, we can forgive. The proliferation is the
West
> > of
> > > the Eastern traditions, philosophies, spiritualities (by way of
prayer,
> > > meditation, yoga, belief, etc.) in the past 3 decades attests to our
> > > yearning for this way of being...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sorry if this isn't more clear...I welcome your thoughts...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Alice
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
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